Hi everyone, I have a question that I've wanted to ask the forum experts for quite awhile now, so here it is; Is it possible to build an MGB roadster that could compete and out perform a "Factory Five" Cobra given the same 5.0 Liter (Ford) engine?
From the Factory Five website:
QuoteMk3 Roadster Vehicle Specifications
Engine
Configuration Dual Overhead Cam 32V V-8 aluminum block and heads
Displacement 281 CID / 46-6 cc
Bore and Stroke 3.55x3.54 in.
Compression ratio 10.1:1
Induction Multi-port Fuel injection
Maximum Horsepower 305 @ 6000 rpm
Maximum Torque 320 @ 4250 rpm
Redline 6800 rpm
Drivetrain
Transmission 5 speed manual
Final drive ratio 3.55:1 limited slip
Clutch 10.5 inch single disc
Suspension
Front suspension type Independent double arm
Rear suspension type Soild Rear Axle 3 link with Panhard Bar
Shock-Springs Bilstein coil over with ride height adjustment
Steering Power assisted rack and pinion 2.6 turns lock-lock
Brakes Vented 13/11.65 disc f/r Power assisted ABS
Wheels 18x9 Ford Racing Cast aluminum
Tires
Kumho Ecsta MX 245/40/18 F 275/35/18 R
Vehicle
Weight 2460 lbs.
Weight Distribution F/R 46.9/53.1 (%)
Wheelbase 90 in.
Overall length 158 in.
Front Track 58.5 in.
Rear Track 58.5 in.
Overall height 48.0 in.
Overall width 70.5 in.
Ground clearance 4.5 in.
Fuel Capacity
15 Gallons
Construction
Layout Front/mid engine RWD Roadster
Frame Tubular space frame with integral backbone
Roll cage 3 point, structurally mounted 2 in. DOM Tubing
Sub-structure Aluminum paneling riveted and bonded to frame
Restraint System 4 point Simpson Harrness
Just from the specs, we can see that an MGB V8 should have two fundamental advantages and two fundamental disadvantages.
As you can see above, at 2460 pounds, the Factory Five "Cobra" can't possibly be called lightweight. Depending on how you build it, an MGB V8 roadster could easily weigh several hundred pounds less... (My MGB GT V8 weighs 2180, wet.) Assuming both cars can hook-up and that they're similarly geared, your MGB should be quicker accelerating in a straight line.
The MGB has both a lower coefficient of drag plus a significantly smaller frontal area, so it should have a higher top speed. The wildcard here is that the MGB tends to become unstable at real high speeds. I don't know how if the Cobra body creates more or less "lift" than an MGB body.
For cornering, the Factory Five Cobra's big advantage is its wide track: 58.5" vs ~49" (stock MGB). However, we have to presume that you're going to put wider tires on your MGB than stock... and when you do you can space them out some. Wider track will equate to "pulling more lateral G's" and thus to carrying more speed through corners.
See the Cobra's tire size? 245/40/18? That's a whole lot of rubber! I'll count it as an advantage in terms of handling because generally more sticky rubber will let a car corner harder. (Don't put too much emphasis on this though... I'm actually skeptical a Cobra "needs" tires quite that big. Smaller wheels and tires would weigh less, would have less flywheel effect, would cause less aerodynamic drag, etc. - I think the real reason the Cobra has such big tires is for looks. If you could really test it, you might find out that an MGB with fender flares can wear "big enough" tires to completely eliminate this Cobra "advantage".)
There are many other factors that go into "competitiveness" that are hard to evaluate from a spec sheet (for example: rigidity of the chassis, suspension geometry, etc.)
Thanks, for the very nicely composed answer Curtis.
I agree that the wide track gives the Cobra a legitimate advantage, however, you are also right to say that too big of a tire can complicate suspension and brakes. One response to fight this advantage is that Fast Cars Inc. (Ted Lathrop) now offers his front end in a wider version. The unsprung weight and steering geometry seem to be much superior to the Factory Five Cobra.
Although I've already purchased Fast Cars first version (wider wasn't available at the time), I hear feedback from owners that the modification gives some serious improvements over the original; I'll only be able to verify these claims for myself when the car is finished and on the road. As far as tire seize/grip goes, my opinion is that the perfect tire seize for an MG with flares should be P215-50ZR16 in front and P225-45ZR16 in the rear. It takes quite a bit of work to accommodate this set up.
I also agree about the MG's aerodynamics being a plus, however, I believe that a front spoiler should be installed on any light weight cars capable of that kind of speed. As far as rigidity of the MG shell, just a few reinforcements added at the right places on the uni-body makes for a good contender. Another thing that Cobra owner don't have is the comfort of the MG, I'm saying that because after sitting behind the steering of one I give that edge to the MG.
I've been reading the forum for awhile now, and I believe that there are enough brains in this group to make any Cobra owner remember what the octagon MG emblem looks like from the rear. I just wish at time that some of the vendors would get together and form a coalition in order to facilitate the conversion choices.
My two cents.
This is just a wild guess on my part, but since LBCs with V8s and Cobras both seem to have a big problem with hooking up, I suspect the additional tire width will give the nod to the Cobra.
"Weight 2460 lbs."
Curtis,
A friend of mine built two of 'em. One for him & later, one for a friend. I really think they were lighter than that. I'm thinking 2100-2200 lbs.
Comfort nod? MGB, definitely. After I sat in a Cobra, it destroyed all the dreams I had of building one. They sure are pretty to look at, though!
QuoteI really think they were lighter than that.
I copied those specs right off the Factory Five website. Can you think of any reason they'd overstate the car's weight? Factory Five didn't say whether their weight spec was "dry" or "wet", but that wouldn't be enough to account for the discrepancy because 15 gallons times ~6.15 pounds/U.S.-gallon only equals 92.25 pounds.
Yes, you can build an MGB to compete with a Factory 5 "Cobra". It will likely take more work than the kit, but you can do it. I believe the Factory 5 kits are great kits (I helped a friend build one). I love Cobras and seriously considered a Factory 5 kit for myself.
One question I would ask you is; what is the intended use of the vehicle when completed? I made a priority list before I started my last project. My priorities, in order, were street use, autocross, drag racing and appearance. What are your priorities?
All projects require compromises. I wanted to be able to go anywhere, any time and in almost any weather (I avoid snow if possible). I just couldn't accept the idea investing that much money and not having roll up windows, a folding top and a usable trunk. The right choice for me was to build my Spitfire instead of the kit. Whatever you decide, enjoy building it (you can't take too many pictures) and drive the wheels off of it when it's done.
Hi Phil, what I want at 57 years old is an all around car that performs at best in all of the categories that you've mentioned within sensible logic. Curtis gave the best outlook in my opinion on the winning edge of the Cobra kit. It's a pretty small edge to own for the amount of money you have to spend.
Certainly, the Cobra cannot meet all these categories with streetable comfort, I don't imagine myself going to one of our meeting in a Cobra and all of a sudden a furious storm hits, second, after driving for awhile in hot summer city traffic I may want to pull up the top and/or turn on the air conditioning to cool off a bit. Drag racing is straight line and (IMO) fair play on both side.
I still believe that the MGB wins in most of the categories mentioned except maybe for autocross, even then if the Cobra driver has an under powered engine he'll have to catch up in turns. I've heard from my friend Jim Stuart that Jim Blackwood has an MG that may stand up to a Cobra.
When I started the thread, my intentions were to invite the premier gear head in our field to listen to their advice on how to approach the leading edge of the Cobra.
As far as looks, the Cobra has an all out "racing" good look, but again the MG in my opinion has an interior much more attractive and comfortable and I've also seen some MG conversion that as far as the exterior look would probably hang in there for the (look) argument.
I also own a powerful supercharged Miata which Miata holds a serious benchmark in autocross achievement, but, as far as long distance comfort it doesn't hold a candle to the sitting comfort of an MGB. When you think about it, the MG is probably the best and most suited vehicle for a successful V8 British car conversion.
Is this a wonderful website or what?!?!?!?
I love your analysis! Well, the Cobra holds a place in automotive history which will never be taken from it. No matter if it is beaten on the track, the strip, the autocross course or the car show, it will always hold that place, dear to the heart of every motorhead. And let's face it, that spot was fairly earned too. So there will always be one justification for owning a Cobra that will never fail. "I want it because it is a Cobra" Fair enough.
But owning a modified LBC is about much more than that. Some builders have sought to match the looks of the Cobra with their car. We've seen some exceptional builds with that goal, simply amazing cars combining good features of both. We've seen cars that can compete on the basis of every performance standard imaginable. But the real goal in building a car is more often not about competing with the Cobra, but about achieving what is most valuable to the builder, and here is where the MGB truly does shine out. It's because, within the limits of an LBC (2 doors, small size, etc) it gives you an almost unlimited blank slate to begin with. The looks are good but can be made as wild as you desire. The handling and ride are acceptable but can be made as good as any other vehicle. The interior is cozy but can be tricked out to your heart's desire. And as for the power? I dare say that we now have far more re-power options than any other car on the planet! Anything from mild to way beyond any resemblance of too much.
No informed person will ever look at your converted MGB and ask you why you didn't buy a Cobra. There are more than adequate reasons. And if competing on the track is near the top of your list, yes, you can compete successfully. The pieces are available to make it happen, whatever you seem to be in need of. And then the really great thing about it is that afterwards if you like you can drive the car home, in comfort and style.
But it isn't a Cobra, it never will be. It's an MGB, and as far as I'm concerned it's the better choice of the two. You take the money you'd pay for the Cobra and put it into the MG and at the end of the day the only advantage the Cobra has left is it's own distinct heritage and mystique. Which MG also has. So it just comes down to a personal choice. The Cobra's name or the MG's comfort? I think that about sums it up.
Jim
Hi Jim, I'm flattered to hear from you, you are held as a great icon on this web's forum and I often enjoy reading your postings. Jim Stuart has spoken many times about your car and the advance technical/personal touch you have put in it. He also told me that you have a brother that can drive one of these high powered machines like nobody's business. Do you really let your brother out drive you (LOL joke)?
Thanks for your insight on this Cobra thread, and you are so right in mentioning that it has earned its place in history with all of credits to the great "Carroll Shelby". Just being able to use it as a benchmark, puts any builder on the right track to success.
Jacques
Curtis,
Like I said, a friend built two Factor Five Cobras. He told me his weighed 21xx lbs.
Same as with our cars, they will vary depending on options.
I was surprised to hear Factory Five say the average build weighs that much. Maybe the newer MK3 frame is heavier?
"Most FFRs weigh in at 2200-2450 depending on the car. I had one that was 1850."
"The FFR Cobras weigh 945kg (2,100lbs.) are equipped with five-speed manual transmissions, will go 0-100 km/h (0-60mph) in four seconds"
Thanks for the kind words Jacques, it's good to be recognized though I'm not sure how much of it is deserved. Pay close attention to the long time visitors to this site, they really know their stuff and are constantly teaching me new things. I really don't know where I'd be without them.
As for brother Dan, it's an honor to have him as my sibling and I can't say enough good things about him. But beat me driving??? Where did that one come from? ;-)
JB
"He also told me that you have a brother that can drive one of these high powered machines like nobody's business. Do you really let your brother out drive you?"
Jim Stuart must have said that to get a rise outta Jim B. Doesn't matter they all 3 drive like Grandmas! ;)
Truthfully, I KNOW Jim B can get down the road.
In general I've always been kind of lukewarm on the cobra kit cars, but I have to admit that the Factory Five operation is pretty impressive. They really approach it from a performance standpoint, rather than a poser "look at me" angle. For me, the mgb gt conversion fits my image of a fun performance car perfectly. BUT, I have to admit that I could see building a Daytona replica someday.
add the GT 40 to my list.......and whole-heartily agree with Carl regarding Cobra ergonomics - deal killer!
Here's an interesting fun fact from "Wicki Cars" that I found out while reading the extensive history of the"Cobra" (start of quote)
The first 75 Cobra Mark I (including the prototype) were fitted with the 260 engine (4.2 L). The remaining 51 Mark I model were fitted with a larger version of the Windsor Ford engine, the 289 in³ (4.7 L) V8. Toward the end of 1962, Alan Turner who was the chief engineer at AC completed a major design change of the car's front end and was able to fit it with Rack and pinion steering while still using transverse leaf springs suspension. The new car went into production in early 1963 and it became known as the Mark II. The steering rack was borrowed from the MGB while the new steering column came from the VW Beetle. About 528 Mark II Cobras were produced to the summer of 1965 (the last US bound Mark II was produced in November 1964). (end of quote)
Obviously, the MGB holds a small but effective role in the Cobra's good handling. It went from a crude steering box to an accurate "rack and pinion". I guess you could say that the Cobra has a small DNA trace of the MGB.
Yes, and in fact so do the reproduction Cobras. The original repro, the Arntz-Butler Cobra used the front suspension from the MGB in it's entirety with only very minor modifications.
JB
Not to take any credit away from the king, but Carroll Shelby was a lucky man, I always thought that he engineered the car right out of the hands of the AC Company but not so; he seemed to also have cashed in on a lot of "trial and error" from other players. Furthermore, with the help of Ford's deep pockets it must have been a blast to keep fine tuning this incredible machine into a world class contender.
Does Jim Stuart know Andy? Maybe that is the brother he is referring to. After all, he is a "professional driver"
Dan B.
"The first 75 Cobra Mark I (including the prototype) were fitted with the 260 engine (4.2 L)"
That, I did know. Saw one live & in person one year at the annual Springtime in the Smokies British car show in Townsend, TN.
Folks I'm new at this and I'm only familiar with a few people. Jim and I live in the same area of Washington D.C. which includes Northern Virginia, Maryland and D.C.
Jim Lives in Montgomery Village, MD and I live in Alexandria, VA. (50 miles apart), I've know Jim now for about 4years and just like lots of MG owners with four bangers, I've got hooked on building a V8 conversion after he gave me a ride and scare the crap out of me in his V8 roaster.
I've spoke to Jim today and clarified some facts about "who out drives who". It turns out according to Jim that Carl Floyd is who he mentioned awhile back as being the one with outstanding "Auto-Cross" skills. Supposedly, Carl took someone's car that had won the Auto-Cross event and beat his winning time. So sorry guys, I blew the story and as far as Carl? "You are the man!" (Subject to next year's rematch?)
Dan is Jim's brothers, and according to Jim Stuart are two great guys to know, but he did mentioned that Jim has an unbelievably fast car.
It's unbelievably slow right now.
JB
Jim, when I dropped the mock up (plastic) motor in my B, I really wanted to install a supercharger under the hood, once you've owned a supercharged vehicle (I do), it's hard to do without its unique sound. The only two supercharged MGB-V8 that I knew of, was yours and Bill Jacobson. My only requirement was that it must all fit under my RV-8 hood.
The problem is that B & M makes one set up for the small block Ford, but, it would not fit under my RV-8 hood. So I thought about it for a couple of months and decided to buy (off Ebay) a B & M used supercharged intake in order to see what I could do to fit some supercharger on the B & M intake. The problem is the width of a 302 (5.0L) intake; it's narrower than most superchargers I could find. The aluminum Rover/Buick engine is just wide enough to accept the Buick 3.8 Liter supercharger.
Finally, I gave up and went E.F.I. naturally aspirated with a Ford Racing GT-40 tubular intake. I also dressed up the engine with MARCH's newest front accessories brackets/pulley kit. However, nothing can replace the incredible whining sound that a supercharger produces; it is pure music to any gear head's ears.
I do have a substitute as a secret weapon that me and Jim Stuart have talked about, but, I have to work out the financial details first (it won't fly by the wife too good, LOL). It also calls for a little bit of work.
That sounds great Jacques, can't wait to see what you have in mind. If nitrous, you might want to contact Mike Dominowski in NY as he's run a nitrous car (and a stroker) for quite some time now and has a lot of experience with it. I think he's currently on his 3rd engine so he's gotten a good handle on just how far you can go. (not necessarily failures caused by the juice).
I have long been a proponent of an underslung blower install but the 302 lifter valley may be too narrow. Use a rear inlet Eaton and flip it over, run the intake runners up and over the base to the discharge port. That would make one wicked package.
JB
What about a Vortech or Paxton supercharger?
Autocross? I think I'll sit this one out. I'm tired of dusting the trophy. ;)
Trophy? What Trophy?
(I'd give you a run for the money if I only had "sticky tires"! ;-)
JB
"Trophy? What Trophy?"
Uh, the one that Steve Carrick awarded me in '02 that has not been relinquished.
http://www.britishv8.org/2002-British-V8-Car-Meet.htm
http://www.britishv8.org/2004-British-V8-Car-Meet.htm
http://www.britishv8.org/2005-British-V8-Car-Meet.htm
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/2007-AutocrossResults.htm
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/2008-AutocrossResults.htm
"I'd give you a run for the money if I only had "sticky tires"!"
Naw, you've got a lead foot! ;)
I didn't see no trophy.
You know that's not official don't you? ;-)
JB
Sorry, Jim. It was most certainly official. I don't think you were at the first Michigan V8 Meet. You know how we have that big dinner the last night? Well, I was presented the trophy in front of the whole crowd. Lots 'o witnesses. The next time we had an autocross I declared it a "Traveling Trophy". I'm still trying to give it away.
Buy some tires instead of building a 500HP engine! :)
Jacques,
Hope you are coming to Indy in July. We have lots of great drivers in this group. Pete Mantell is probably the best, but none of us would admit it, especially me. In addition to Pete, Ken Hiebert won the go-cart race last year. Lots of fierce competitors, Max Fulton, Les Shockey, Bill Yobi, Brian McCullough, Steve Carrick, Kurt Schley, Mike Moor, Martyn Harvey, Jim & Dan Blackwood, & Joe Schafer to name a few. I"m sure left some more out. Let's not forget the young guns (sons) Graeme Harvey & Cade Schafer. My son will be 16 in 2011, but he has a long way to go before he's gonna catch me! :)
Carl, that would be fun and what would even be more fun, would be to show up in my own car. Coming up with ideas to design/personalize my car was fun, but finishing it is an other, money wise, time wise and energy wise. I tend to over think things and I always had a hard time living by the rules of the four words "K.I.S.S."
Maybe Jim Stuart and I could ride together. Here are a couple of photos of my aging project:
LatestMGBpicsFebruary2010003.jpg
LatestMGBpicsFebruary2010005.jpg
LatestMGBpicsFebruary2010008.jpg
LatestMGBpicsFebruary2010014.jpg
We are bad to go off tangent here. Bothers some, not me. So, as for the original question....
I know of several (at least 4), with more in the works, MGBs with over 300 horsepower at the rear wheels. Not mine, but 300HP & 2200 lbs is right there with most Cobras. The one that Pete Mantell is building with an LS3 will KILL most Cobras.
I drove a stock MGB to my first three V8 Meets (my '79 & my dad's 63) starting in 1998. Had a blast at all of them. Met a lot of great people, made many friends. There is something in the air that is intoxicating, besides the beer & bourbon. Just be there.
"Here are a couple of photos of my aging project:"
Definitely looks like you know what you are doing!
I've spoken with Pete Mantell on the phone a couple of times concerning oil filter adapters, he's really puts you at ease, very personable. LS3? WOW, we're all in deep trouble, I hope Pete post some pics of the Cobra killer........
Nice car Jacques, see what you mean about simple things...
Carl, I most certainly WAS there, but that trophy was a spoof! ;-) You know good and well that we don't give out trophies at the V8 meet!
JB
Yeah, it's hard to change at 57 years old, there's actually some co-workers taking bets that the car will end up for sale as a project; I can't let that happen, however, this little guy has been four years in the make so far.
BTW, part of this madness is to install a rear mounted single turbocharger. Me and Jim are still figuring out the lay out. The beauty about forced induction is that you don't have to worry so much about intake flow; the only attention falls on exhaust flow. Any ideas? (oh-oh, I just gave the secret weapon away, LOL)
"Carl, I most certainly WAS there, but that trophy was a spoof! ;-) You know good and well that we don't give out trophies at the V8 meet!"
B F'ng S this time Jim, that one particular year we did. There was an award for the show & the autox. I didn't like it, but it happened anyway. Bill Yobi & I tried very had to win the autox. I beat him fair & square without any sticky tires. I'm bringing that same trophy to Indy so I can present it to someone else.
That's the one Rick made up out of broken rear axle parts isn't it? I tell you, it flies in the face of everything we've said about the V8 meet over the years! You get one trophy, then it's two, then you have to have dash placques and show awards! Where does it end?!!! Might as well be stealing peoples hats!
Jacques, I'm impressed. With what you've shown us so far I have little doubt that your rear mount will be very illuminating and can't wait to see it run, and look at the details of your build. Just from your photos there are a number of questions I'd like to ask.
I quite agree about the forced induction. No concerns with porting, fitting big valves and all that stuff. Plus it gives you a chance to express your creativity in other areas.
JB
"That's the one Rick made up out of broken rear axle parts isn't it? " No that's the hard luck award.
Steve bought two trophies for 2002 show. The ONLY year this was done. One for a Participant's Choice car show award. the other for the autocross. Mike Moor & Jim Stuart tied for the car show award. Not sure who won the tie breaker. Now that I think about it, I believe Jim Stuart got it.
Steve, Mike, Bill Yobi, & I were drinking beer late into the night at Steve's house. I matched Bill beer for beer. Steve gave us a preview & showed us the autocross trophy (sort of a plaque). I thought to myself "That's going home with me" . The next day at the autocross Bill was off his game a bit due to the late night partying. I showed no mercy & took no prisoners. The rest is ancient history. :)
Thanks for the compliments Jim, we are buried in snow around here; that's not normal for this area. I measured 26-30 inches in my driveway. One of my preferred tree (Magnolia) split from the weight of this heavy snow, I guess I got my work cut out for the rest of the day if we want to make it to work Monday, however, I also have a secret weapon for that one, it's called a "Skid Steer Loader"
Feel free to ask all of the questions you want, I'm not so sure that I can explain my madness; I do have a plan based on modern automotive principles. I found it a lot easier listening to people talk about existing problems and how they have or may solved them; 4 or 5 opinions are better than one as far problem solving goes and engineering.
Some of you guys are naturals just like the popular TV show "Chop, Cut, Rebuild". As far as car looks goes, I wanted to go a little modern-retro so I'm trying to incorporate some RV-8 touches such as the bulge hood, steering wheel and my wheel looks almost the same as the RV-8 BBS wheels (subject to change).
Winter2009-2010011.jpg
Hey Jacques,
With the limited space in the engine bay, any plans to stick a large screw or two small ones back in the battery box/boxes?
No way, that would take all of the fun (madness) away!