More pictures of 4.9 V8, gray one with modified oil pan a Porsche 924 swap,red one and black one Fiero swaps. There was a guy on the MGB Experience board that was doing a 4.5 swap.The archive pictures were lost when it was upgraded.This engine weighs 360lbs. You would have to make custom headers ,but should fit in there.It can be carbed and use a modified Olds 75-80 distributor. Pennocks Fiero site has lots of info on rebuilding and upgrading.Also Fiero Addiction site.
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The black one and rockers modified with newer Buick V6 roller trunions, these engines are already roller cammed and use 60 degree V6 bellhousing, use redrilled GM FWD 3100 V6 flywheel.More pictures of the red one on the flanged liner thread:
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Jim, Thanks for pic's and info.Norstar heads work on this block? I believe Norstar block has alum. bore? 4.9 may have more bore potential. Bore spacing, just measure with calipers/steel scale? Happy Holidays,roverman.
Roverman, I don't presently have one but will pick one up after the holidays to play with. I think it would be worth seeing if someone can cast aluminum heads to replace the stock ones. Stock valves are 1.77 intake and 1.50 exhaust.People have put 1.94 intakes in but, in my opinion is a waste of time unless valves are unshrouded.Stock HP was around 200HP, but with Delta cams regrind closer to 280HP.Wide Torque band from 2000RPM to 4000RPM around 300+ft lbs. The max bore of .040(Northstar pistons) also raise compression about a point to 10.5. Quad 4 pistons lower compression to 8.5 for Turbo. I think you would be on your own with Northstar or Quad 4 head swap. The rod length of the 90 4.5 was longer than the 4.9(5.9 vs 5.7) I think with shorter compression height pistons, that would be a good swap for the 4.9. I think compression height stock is 1.25.Maybe Quad 4 pistons with the longer rods .
Those engines have a horrid reputation for internal cooling system leaks. I personally know 4 people who have had them go tango uniform because of this. The factory installed stop leak on the assembly line for goodness sake. It 'aint a Northstar!
I think you are talking about the earlier 4100HT,maybe early 4.5 TBI. They were terrible! 80's 4.5 intake would be good for carb swap,no injector holes to plug. 90 and up have had less problems with cooling than Northstars.The 90-92 4.5 and 91-94 4.9 use much improved gasket/sealing materials. My brother is a GM mechanic and he said there have been problems with aftermarket parts store water pumps(use GM delco) If you go to Pennocks Fiero Forum do a search in the archives. The trick is to rebuild with Permetex Hylomar HPF on the O rings for the sleeves.There are quite a few holding up to 300+ HP.
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Jim, Regarding the Northstar, You've read the Wikipedia data? I don't no how reliable that is but you may want to consider a 2003-up crank(forged)? 4" bore centers, crank swap? 4.4L best for boosting and VVT. I heard a lot of, "negative" in buggy use, regarding over-heating fragility. The Aurora 4L. should be best for hi- boost,(thickest liners), used in the Shelby I series. Good Luck, roverman.
Are they seriously 4" bore centers? WOW that must be a small V8.
Nic, even worse, it's "square". Wikipedia-check it out. Nic,You could be the ,"first" to build a 4" bore Northstar. We would "marvel" at your freedom of sharing, Un-like, "SOME", we know.roverman.
I don't know how this thread morphed,different manifolds use different valve covers,TBI vs Port injection,both transverse manifolds. Also note main caps same height as block for easy girdle!Some more 4.9 pics:
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100mm (3.938") bore centers. It's got to be a short engine. I've found one reference for 360lbs., says with flexplate and alternator. Not bad. I wonder what the overall dimensions are.
Jim, are those pix yours? Or do you have one of these laying around? Put a tape to it if you do. Let us know how long the block is and maybe block with waterpump. Deckheight? Width? How about width with the Quad4 heads. Cool.
What is up with Cadillac and integrating the valve cover flanges in with the intake. Very limiting. I suppose "very limiting" is the challenge with these engines. I get it.
Nic, It is common for the intake and heads to share valve covers. GM 60 degree V6, Ford FE 390-428 etc. It might be to save weight with a smaller iron head? I was just showing that the early TBI 4.1/4.5 use a straight valve cover. Also they have a conventional front water outlet on the RWD engines. The 4.9 is not my engine, just thinking of a future project. They are all over in wrecking yards for $300. I know very little about the Northstar. I know it is compact,short and maxed out on bore. It has nothing in common with the 4.1/4.5/4.9 family.You guys were just dazzeled by those DOHC heads! Actually, I was just thinking cheap light motor,300HP in a MGB that would be an alternative to the GM V6.Similar to the 215/Rover in size.I did find some weights:36lb each for iron heads,45lb for block,350lb for entire engine. You could go pretty big bore if the head bolt bosses allow the room.. If you go 4" I still don't think the cylinders would touch.Custom stepped sleeves and aluminum block bored to fit.The 4.9 in the picture is already bored out to 3.66" bore(.040 over stock) about 3/8" wall and 1/2" between cylinders.I'm guessing 4.36" bore centers. Here are comparison pics between Northstar and 4.9.
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OK so the bore centers are more than 4". Makes more sense now. Thanks man.
Ok, so 3.62" std. bore +.5" between bores, I think that + 4.12" bore centers?
Is the orange block the northstar? What is the bore again on that motor? Looks like quite a lot of room between cylinders on that one.
Jim
Jim, No, the one with the siamesed bores is northstar. The orange one is the 4.9. 3.62 stock bore with thick wet sleeves.
Roverman ,you forgot the thickness of the top part of the wet liners. I haven't got one to measure yet,just guessing. I think Nic is still confusing the Northstar and 4.9. The pictures above show Northstar has siamesed bores, the 4.9 large space between wet liners. Here is a picture with head gaskets showing a lot of room. I would be happy with 3.8 bore. I don't remember the formula for boreXstroke= cubic inches.3.62X3.62 =4.9=300 cubic inches. So, 3.8X3.62 and 4X3.62= how many cubic inches?
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Probably. There isn't a ton of clear info about them online.
3.8 bore x 3.62 stroke: 5.4l (329 ci)
4 bore x 3.62 stroke: almost 6.0l (364 ci)
Are you going to build one of these, Jim?
Probably not but it is tempting. Might consider it after the RD goes back together so maybe mid summer at the earliest. But I'm confused about the bore sizes of the 3.9 and the northstar.
BTW, the formula is 8 pies stroked times square radius. (That is right, right?)
Jim
Nic, Thanks for the calculations. For the other Jim the engineer,what if you bored down between the head bolt bosses for the outer diameter of the sleeve that would make the block quite a bit stiffer. The flat bottom end with the maincaps flush with the panrails would be easy for 1/4" girdle. I think you could do a valley girdle also,picture three triangles bolted to the lifter valley bolts.Tons of info,search the current and archives on 4.9 in Pennocks Fiero Forum. That orange motor rebuild is on there. He had to use a 4.5 block as he found the junkyard motor was cracked in a front end collision.Northstar piston is .040 larger with same pin height, about 1 point higher compression(10.5).Quad4 piston (same bore, 3.62)is dished slightly for 1 point compression drop.(8.5)
4.5 is 3.62X3.31=273 cubic inches. So Nic, help me out here. 3.8X3.31=? 4X3.31=? Same piston as 4.9,longer rod(5.9 vs 5.7 for the 4.9). Jim, what's a radius squared?
Damn near 300 even CID for 3.8" bore. That's nice.
333 ci (5.45l) for the 4" bore. Cool number.
Here's the long version:
8 pies stroked x square radius =
1) Bore dia divided by 2 equals radius.
2) Radius times itself times 3.14 (π) gives area of piston. (Pies are square)
3) Area times stroke gives cylinder displacement.
4) Displacement times number of cylinders gives engine displacement.
So for a V8,
8 pies stroked x square radius = displacement.
Happy New Year!
Jim
Folks, Carl Floyd "threaded" on 12/27, under "power cal'cs, a link to many of the formulas we need for such work. Thanks Carl, roverman.
Engine Calculators
https://uempistons.com/rt-4-calculators
Happy New Year to you guys, This bench machining is a blast! You know like bench racing.Yeah, Carl thanks for the link.Cool!
Pies are round; cornbread are square
xcept for mathmaticians. They got square pies and round cornbread. Come to think of it. I always liked round cornbread better anyways. (baked in an iron skillet)
Jim
Call me old-fashined-jus doan call me, I like fish-net like material-line up the back... an an for just me, "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be bl.......", never mind. Is this our first "bench jacking" of 2010? -cool. roverman.
"I like....
I like the little way the line runs up the back of the stockings
I've always liked those kind of high heels, too, ya know I...
No, no, no, no don't take 'em off. Don't take...leave 'em on
Yeah, that's it...a little more to the right"
-Everybody Wants Some!!- Van Halen (David Lee Roth era)
Good one.
Isn't this graaaaate ! Our "commune", at the Cadillac Ranch, has woven the first hemp rope in 2010 from "Caddy" threads. roverman -not up-in-smoke
I don't know where to start here anymore.No wonder Nic crosses over to all these different threads. I think Roverman was inferring Jims fishnet idea for block filler.Carl's just got a good sense of humor! What really surprised me is Dan Masters started it! Hey I got it,you guys are very helpful and you can still goof around, but seriously after you get the 4"(or 3.8) liners in the Caddy you can pour in block filler easily because you can see down around the wet liners. There is a procedure to set the liners first. You have to torque the heads with an old gasket to 30 ft lbs first to insure they are seated on the O ring. The block filler would be insurance to prevent leaks. See how I intertwined the humor with getting back on track. I have a line on a 94 4.9 core I am going to try to get next week,plus a RWD 4.1 TBI intake and valve covers. The early intakes were single plane the later(89 and up) dual plane. My idea to make a 4 barrel manifold. First the 1/2"TBI adapter with counterunk scews,porting, then the Edelbrock split 1" spacer.Hey does that Extrudehone company still exist?More pictures:
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If I did fuel injection I'd be tempted to do what this guy did on a Northstar : use 650-750 Suzuki motorcycle throttle bodies on tube type manifolds because it looks so cool! I would use chrome stacks on top though.
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Jim, you entertwined somptin-"pfunny"?Pic's are TB's with port injection? If you "must have' I.R. ,for Caddy Shack, you mite "peep", type I or IV, VW(using IDF. Webbers) or John Eales,"swan Necks' for Rovers? roverman.
The individual runner manifold won't work, because as Nic noticed, you are limited with the intake being part of the head under the valve cover. You could do the Inglese 4 barrel to Weber deal though. This is shown on a V6 manifold.
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The runner/pushrod geometry kinda sucks doesn't it. A custom intake might be quite a chore.
Jim
Other than the forged crank, What does the push rod motor have to offer, vs. Northstar?
Inexpensive base,(thousands in wrecking yards for around $300 avg) easy 300HP,possibly larger bore. It looks like it is limited to the "poor boy" Performer 4 barrel intake mod.You could turbo or supercharge for more power.
Maybe you could chop off the two sides and graft in a different intake?
Jim, If I understand, only cast iron head available? Norstar head can't be swapped-on? 4.9L has likely more bore potential than Northstar? Used a forged crank yet? Northstars too expensive? Thanks, roverman.
Maybe you could chop off the flange part of the intake and graft on a different one like this:
http://www.buickperformancegroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6012
Not that you'd happen across one with ports like that. Just a thought.
Until "someone" bothers to feed us exact bore spacing, head swap don't look good. The shortblock might be a good way to go, if we can get rid of the"dorky" stuff.
Sometime next week I will have one in my possesion to measure everything.The guy that made that manifold in the link above is very talented! I was thinking that on the early single plane manifold you could cut off the top and weld a flat aluminum flange like these Trans-Am 351 Cleveland Holley manifolds. Then you could do Dual Quad ,Tri-power, Webers or even a Blower manifold just by bolting a different top on.
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I like if we can find a "user friendly" head for it. May want to consider Melling sleeve# CSL 308 F(flanged,3.9"bore x1/16" wall).roverman.
I keep finding references that put the bore spacing at 4". I'm looking forward to when you get your spare block. Put some mystery aside. Wouldn't it be great if it was more like 4.4"?
I haven't seen anything on the 4.9. The Northstar is 4".If you look at the comparison pictures the Northstar bores are touching(3.66" bore). The 4.9 looks to have a lot of space(3.62" bore).It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't the same as SBC at 4.4".Or it could be 4.24" like the 215/Rover, it is hard to tell by looking at pictures.I've seen pictures somewhere of LS heads sitting on a SBF and SBF heads sitting on a LS block (same 4.4" bore spacing).Here is a couple more pics of the 4.9.
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LS 4.8/5.3 looks pretty close (3.78" bore),4.4" bore spacing. Would'nt it be great to bolt on LS heads! Here are pics of an LS block without sleeves compared to a 4.9 block.Also an older 327 chev pic.
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My intake idea would be similar to the Edelbrock GM V6 base. Just bolt the top you want on. The biggest problem with the Caddy is lack of aftermarket support. So you have to improvise. If it becomes more popular like in the Fiero and Kit cars, that might improve.The small port size might hurt on a large stroker also. Maybe I will get an extra head to section and see how much we can improve that without hitting a water jacket.I am making a home made flow bench using a shop vac and MAF sensor (voltage to flow calculations). The chamber looks just like the Vortech Chevy heart shape.The port size looks small like the early small block Ford. It looks like with 4" bore you have room for 2.02/1.60 Chevy valves.Of course you would have to unshroud the valves. Because of the smaller ports 3.8" bore might be more realistic, but I guess you can't beat cubic inches.
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Next Monday I get my 4.9 and rear wheel drive intake(front water outlet) and oil pan(rear sump). The 94 was sold, so I had them get me a 92 from Portland. I will have to find valve covers yet.Evidentaly 82-85 4.1 are steel(chrome on Eldorado).86-89 4.5 TBI finned aluminum.
I looked at the Melling sleeve catalog and there are specs for the Cadillac 4.1 sleeves(Cadillac just bored them out for 4.5/4.9): Flange dia. 4.213, length 5.580. LS 1 flange dia.4.320, length 5.600(.020 longer).Correction:4.5 is bored out from 4.1 sleeve but 4.9 is shorter because they increased the crank counterweight diameter when they stroked it. 4.9 sleeve is 5.395 long. Caddy must have 4.4" bore spacing. 4.213" outside dia. and still has space between cylinders.Those LS1(3.870 bore) sleeves might work if there is enough meat in the block for a interference fit. The step on the bottom would have to be bored down .020" deeper. That would be a straight sleeve, no O-ring or step. By the end of next week i will find out . The wrecking yard called and said my engine was in, but I have 2 more 12 hour shifts and can't pick it up until Tuesday.
Uhhh... Jim ? When I do the math it comes to only .020" deeper ? Is not the LS1 sleeve designed to be dry ?(metal around it ?) Good Luck, Art.
Typo Roverman,fixed, thanks .Yes the LS1 sleeve is meant to be dry, but is thicker than the stock sleeve. I was thinking, the bottom part interference fit with about 2" of block filler above that. I also read that the LS 4.8/5.3 (3.78 " bore) is thicker and can be bored out to the LS1 size.Probably same outside diameter.You might be better off using that for 3.8" bore. I just thought the factory liners would be a lot less expensive than aftermarket.
You could always chew the top off 20 thou. How thick do the sleeves need to be to be wet?
I don't know, but thicker without the metal around them, would be more ridgid. Probably stay round better when the heads are torqued also. I thought if I have to bore it out anyway I would just go .020 deeper.
Clan, "Dry sleeve in a wet world", many would contend arrox..12" min. wall, but this is somewhat comparing a flyswatter to nuclear fusion. That Melling, HP. sleeve is approx 30-40% stronger than standard and reflected in price at approx. $111. ea. Lots of variables to consider here, effective compression, boost, type/coolant temp, area of sleeve un-supprted,lateral thrust, pre-ignition/detonation(a real deal breaker). I think, Nic' has a better way and time will tell. roverman.
I got my engine home. I'm too tired from 5 hours driving and we are having a heck of a windstorm. The early manifold has really small runners and looks like the old Tarantula manifold. The later one on the engine looks like the Performer dual plane with much larger ports. The oil pan is still one large sump like the later one. I think the 4.1 manifold and pan are off a 85 tranverse FWD. So the manifold still has the rear water outlet.I'll have to look at 82-84 to see if they are different.The engine was complete except no distibutor,starter,alternator or throttle body. The 4.1 intake has a TBI throttle body on it.Tomorrow I'll hang it from the cherrypicker and pressure wash it. Pictures and measurements of bore centers soon.
Jim. Thanks for up-date. What if huh ?? "She took the Kaeddy-didn wanna let me ride"-John Belushi, long may he cruise.
Sweet! Can't wait, Jim. Should be fun.
Hey Jim,I'm really exited about your project,I'm sure you will have ideals about things that I had never thought of.I'm sure,like me,the project is more about eccentricity and uniqueness and not really about horsepower and "going fast",obvious,because we all know,how eaiser and cheaper than can be achieved.Projects like this are allways so damn much fun!!!
I hope you are realizing how mismatched the ports of RWD intake manifold are for 4.9 head.Of coarse,It can probably be gasket matched,however that manifold is a serious detune for the 4.9,all the porting anyone could ever do,would not make it flow anywhere close to the 4.9 manifold.That was the same problem I had with the 4.5 tbi unit,when I thought,I wanted to carb my engine,and the 4.1 RWD unit was alot worse than the 4.5.I'm sure,you must have something else(modification) planned for the RWD manifold.
I'm looking forward to watching your progress!
Thanks...
Chad
Chad, About all that would be left would be the port flanges. I was planning on cutting the top off and making a box type manifold with interchangeable tops like I show a few threads back.It would work as a large plenum.Mostly I wanted the front water outlet so I would'nt have such long radiator hoses like in this picture.By the way this motor is in a 4X4 Trooper with 454 TBI with 350 injecters .It has the Delta cam also.I haven't had a chance to even look at mine yet.
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I'm pressure washing and tearing down the 4.9 this morning. Bore spacing measurements soon. I did find one aftermarket part for this engine:Cloyes double roller timing set for $56.
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Hmmm, sure "looks" like sbc. pattern on cam spocket. Gear drive/belt drive anyone??
Took a little longer to strip down than I figured but here are pictures so far:
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Man, I just "dig" the way those head bolts tie-in deep in the block..into main bulk-heads perhaps? We want LS heads onnit!roverman
Jim, You may want to "peep", Alan Johnson's biz, Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators in Fallbrook, C.A. He's big in Northstars, don't know bout 4.9's. roverman.
Jim, You may want to "peep", Alan Johnson's biz, Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators in Fallbrook, C.A. He's big in Northstars, don't know bout 4.9's. roverman.
4.9 is uncharted territory. So far the Fiero guys are into them. I think it has potential for sports cars,street rods,sandrails,a replacement for V6's in Camaro/Firebird,S-10/S15 pickups and Blazers,Isuzu Troopers/Amigos and Jeeps also. I haven't had time to tear into mine yet with working on my days off, rebuilding my daughter's computer,etc. I did some comparison measurements with the small block Ford. About the same height,a couple inches wider, about 4" shorter. Transverse FWD motors are usually shorter.The good news is it is about 100 lbs lighter.
Super Bowl today, maybe tommorow I can pull the heads. Here is 3 more pictures: 1 of homemade headers and Allante gear reduction starter, 1 of valve cover with fins ground off-do outside and be careful the 4.5 and 4.9 are magnesium and 1 of washer method to hold sleeves in on engine stand so they won't fall out when rotated.
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One more pic of head with 1.94 /1.50 Chevy valves. You can see why the engine is so short. The combustion chamber is turned sideways but looks a lot like Vortec heads.Rockers remind me of newer Ford.
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Jim, maybe a Mopar 5.7/6.2 gasket will fit ? What if ? roverman.
Art, I might go to my friendly neighborhood auto parts store and do some gasket comparing:Chevy LS and newer Mopar Hemi! I'm usually not that lucky though.
Good news is...only need once ! YOU could be the "Pete Aardema" of the 4.9L. A Hemmy Cad-Sweeeet ! roverman.
Tomorrow morning I will finally have some time to tear down and get bore spacing measurements.
Bore spacing by tape measure: 4 3/8"(4.375) probably 4.4 like Chevy.Head bolt pattern 3.5" up and down 4.5" left and right.Skinny heads, probably have to live with stock heads: porting,polishing,gasket matching,larger unshrouded valves.
One more thing for RWD, you have to make a remote oil filter adapter block to replace the stock one. Here is a pic showing the stock one hanging over bellhousing:
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Roller lifter and spider pic.
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I got an engine manual from Ebay. It has all the info from 4.1-4.5-4.9 FWD/RWD and updates._Do not remove_ the lifter section.It is installed before the machineing operations on the block and machine torqued in place. So if you remove it the block will distort and be junk.(now I know why it says Do Not Remove on it) Looks like The Eldorado rear sump pan has a deeper sump than the standard RWD pan. 91 and up 4.9 had Gerotor oil pump.The intake bolts have conical washers and need to be torqued to 8ftlb then 12ftlb in sequence.The rocker arm bridges can be loosened gradually and the whole assembly lifts out, kind of like shaft mount rockers.Lots more info.
Ok, so what did you see when you removed it ? Why would block distort ,unless lifter section was used to pre-stress block ? Got calipers ? Got LS and Hemi potential ? Can you hear the "build", begging for better heads ? roverman.
I didn't remove it. That DO NOT REMOVE kinda scared me. The cam bearings are in a 2 piece sandwich between the block and lifter part. The cam bearings are line bored,mains line bored, block bored AFTER the lifter piece is machine torqued on! Yes,pre-stressed. No way you could get it back exactly. Head bolt pattern is too skinny for other heads, just have to improve the stock ones best I can. I plan on cutting guides down,machineing the bowls/trimming guides in there,gasket matching,Chevy 1.94/1.50 valves unshrouded,Z28 springs.Homemade steel rocker bridge.1.73 Ford rockers or 1.7 big block Chevy adjustable with 2.8/3.1 Crane studs.Homemade headers. Delta cams hottest regrind(E303) cam.(this same grind in 302 Ford produced 400HP with 1.7 rockers and Edelbrock Performer intake)I'll have 346 c.i. or 5.7 Liter. 3.9 LS pistons for tractor sleeves. Summit or Holley 4 barrel on 1.5" adapter. 1/4" steel block girdle. 400 HP?
Here is a guy that put LS beehive springs 1.7 Ford (351 Cleveland) roller rockers with homemade steel bridge and 2.00/1.5 valves in 4.9 heads. He also uses Northstar pistons(.040 over stock and 10.5 compression).Pics of heads:
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Allante 4.5 intake:
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Heads on this motor show inner head bolts with studs on top for rocker bridge:
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Crossdrilled crank and front view for same motor:
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Inside of block:
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Motor for Fiero with Alante fuel injection:
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Found out a few things taking the motor apart. To pull the water pump you have to pull the pulley as there are 3 bolts hidden under it. You need a 3 jaw 4" gear puller to pull the damper. Also found a small piece of rocker arm guide laying in head. also found a wire clip from lifter on oil pump screen. i checked all the parts and lifter and rocker guide must have been replaced. So I would highly recommend the c clips in the lifters. I plan on LS springs in mine also. Other than that all looks good. It looks like a Ford engineer designed it with the allen oil pump drive, small rod bolts,rocker arms and small ports. The cylinder liners and crank look like new. All bearings looked good. I could tell someone worked on the top end as all gaskets were new looking. (probably when they fixed the lifter and rocker arm guide). People have had trouble with the rocker arm bolts pulling out, with higher spring pressure. Now I know why, the small 8MM self tapping screws in the aluminum bridge. My fix will be 10MM/3/8" studs like the 60 degree V6 uses(Crane) for adjustable rockers. They will go through the bridge and will have a locknut below.Also the stock rockers should have the slot lengthend for higher lift to prevent binding. That is probably a contributing factor. I personally like the stock type 351 Cleveland(1.73 ratio stock) with longer slot. You can get a Crane roller trunion kit for it. After I pressure wash the block I'll take more measurements and pictures. You won't get the power out of this motor like a small block Ford or Chev or LS. It will fall between them and the V6, at about the same weight as the V6. Plus, cheap in wrecking yards. A very good upgrade for 4 and V6 stock motors.
Pictures of my freshly pressure washed block:
PCV001.jpg
PCV002.jpg
PCV003.jpg
PCV004.jpg
picture of lifter cover with "DO NOT REMOVE"
PCV006.jpg
A couple more:
PCV010.jpg
A lot of sharp machined surfaces. One more pic:
PCV012.jpg
Jim, That is quite a slot behind the upper main shells ! Block looks, diecast through-out. Story I heard was GM bought "Evenrude", for their diecasting expertise, first used in the Quad Four ? Got LS head gasket ? Thanks for sharing. " Mike", see how this works ? roverman.
Actually it was Mercury Marine that was brought in to help because of porosity problems with the early 4.1. I recommend wearing light gloves as I have lots of little scrapes and cuts just handeling the block. Very sharp wherever it was machined. I can pick it up with one hand.
I am going to use an electric Chevy water pump with adapters similar to the Chrysler Hemi set up.
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Those electric water pumps flow what, maybe 50 GPH max? Is that enough for a street driven car?
JB
Jims' and clan. Should be gal per min. "Mezier", in line .rated 20 gpm while hi-flow rated at 55 gpm. As long as your not boiling/steaming, somewhere in the system, I don't see the need for over-kill on flow. I have seen cars/trucks with big hoses and tubes in rad, boil, because thermostat had been removed. Coolant moved too fast through rad.= not enough thermal differential, between in/out. Slower the flow through rad ,more heat exchanged. Anyone use "Evan's Waterless" ? roverman.
Those water pumps are just starting to catch on with street rods and street/strip cars. I read of one guy that has over 100,000 miles on his.
More pics,the oil pan has a nice baffle I am going to use in the earlier (4.1)rear sump pan, or modify the 2 pans I've got for rear sump.All the internal parts are on one bench,still have to be cleaned and examined. Both manifolds, 85 4.1 single plane with TBI and 4.9 bare intake.
PCV001.jpg
PCV002.jpg
PCV003.jpg
PCV004.jpg
Jim, Looks like "cast" rods ? Engine weights on webb shows 4.9L at 360 lbs. with flex plate and alt. MGB bound ?Good Luck, roverman.
I plan on putting the bare block in the MGB bay next week and figuring mounts. That's what this site is all about,American engines in British cars or British engines in American cars(Nic's Rover/Vega).Hey, I just remembered I had a Vega with a Buick V6. Oh, that doesn't count. American in American! LOL!
I've got the measurments I need for mounts but have'nt had time. I will be gauging interest on a install kit similar to the V6 and Pete Mantells 302 kit. Price not set but, probably between the V6 and 302. It will be initially for 68-74 chrome bumper so rubber bumper models would have more room. Instead of templates for footbox mods I plan on providing patch panels(heater shelf to brake box and similar on other side) that could be riveted or welded.Motor mounts,RV8 style headers,trans mount for T5 initially,later Auto AW4/A340( could also be modified to Jim Blackwood's upcoming 6 speed auto kit if he makes an adapter to GM 60 degree V6/Caddy4.9) and Colorado,Canyon,Toyota 5 speed,instruction manual.I will also have accessories and various adapters for the 4.5/4.9 to swap to other vehicles in a catalog with link to a Ebay store.
These aren't mine but will give you an idea what I'm going to make. The headers are for a 215, the mounts for a Chevy V8 but similar to my design.
AstroV8Mounts.gif
KeithBurnett-MGBGTV8-CU.jpg
customtranscrossmember.jpg
We have 4 people off and a hiring freeze where I work,so still working almost every day in the Pulp and Paper mill. As soon as I have time I will have prototype pictures. In the meantime I am still doing research. The fuel injectors used by GM in the 80's and early 90's aren't the most reliable,prone to plugging and shorting. The yellow Bosch 2 and 3 found in later 5.0 Fords are much more reliable.My idea of LS 1 pistons won't work with the stock rods,not enough meat to bore from .880 to .927 for the pin. So would have to modify SBC rods or turn crank down to Quad 4 size.The Chevy water pump is feasable and the 4.5 used separate damper and pulleys.
Picture of yellow Bosch Ford injector next to Caddy one.
New_4_9_067.jpg
Wow. The O rings look to be the same size. Is the impedance of the two similar? Even the wiring connector looks compatible.
Heck, I'll bet you can use the Ford EEC IV system on that little monkey.
Yeah, All we need now are some-Ford roller cam spec's, lol. roverman/jacker
Art, Actually the Delta cam regrind is Ford Racing E303 roller spec.LOL I think a Ford designer had something to do with this engine or was blatantly copied. Too many similarities,oil pump drive,rockers,small ports,etc.
"Paul", Maybe we can "blatantly" ask those specs. ? Rollin On A River, roverman.
E303 second mildest of five after B303. Then F303, then X303 and Z303. Lift is figured with 1.6 rockers so add about .030 for 1.7. The E303 with 1.7 rockers, aluminum heads and Performer RPM intake made 400 HP in 302(5.0) in a hot rod mag. Firing order for Ford 5.0 H.O. and 351W (5.8) is like LS, Ford numbers their cylinders differently.Here is a link with specs: http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=1329
Thanks Jim. I'm trying to come up with specs for a new roller cam. I was going to use the stock Ford 5.0 HO grind;
1985-1988 5.0L Mustang Roller Cam
Part # E5ZE-6250-AA
Advertised Duration: 266 / 266
Duration @ .050: 210 / 210
Lift w 1.6 rocker: 0.444 / 0.444
Lift w 1.7 rocker: 0.472 / 0.472
Lobe separation: 115
1989-1995 5.0L Mustang Roller Cam
Part #'s E8ZE-6250-CA or F1ZE-6250-AA
Advertised Duration: 276 / 266
Duration @ .050: 214 / 210
Lift w 1.6 rocker: 0.444 / 0.444
Lift w 1.7 rocker: 0.472 / 0.472
Lobe separation: 115
I think that the rather wide LSA in the Ford 5.0/HO is partly due to the very low rod ratio and the resulting dynamics of the piston position that results from the low RR. The Rover 4.0 had a better rod ratio, so I'm going to tweak the LSA down to 113. This should still help the EFI with a strong signal, help with low-end torque and good economy, and still move the air.
The intake port airflow of the Rover 4.0 has flow characteristics very similar to the Ford 5.0, including flow rates and the fact that they both seem to level off their flows right above .400" valve lift. So, both engines will respond to roller cams in a similar manner.
What seems to be hanging this transaction is knowing what the ramp rate should be. I'm still not sure that a customer would be the one to specify ramp rate because it's partly a function of the material of the cam, the diameters of the cam lobe and the lifter's roller diameter, and considerations relating to side thrust of the lifter in its bore. This sort of information is probably better understood by cam grinder than a customer.
Edit: looking at the cam specs for the E303 and the B303, what jumps out at me is that the B303 is installed with the centerline advanced 3 degrees. The 'milder' B303 actually has more duration than the E303.
Clan, We need to move this to "Serious Roller Cams". Thanks, roverman.
Still busy at work but, newer small gear reduction starters for 3400 and 3800 V6 will work in addition to the Allante starter. For example: 98 Pontiac GrandPrix 3800 supercharged has a more powerful motor, 1.7KW compared to 1.5KW stock. Also the 2 holes in front on each side of the block are ideal for low mount 1 piece alternator mount (like in Chad's Porsche swap) and steady rod/dogbone. Pictures of mounts with orange poly cushions and engine block in bay soon. Here is the smaller, more powerful starter pics:
98GrandPrix3800.jpg
The Bosch and Ford injectors are interchangeable. As long as the connectors are the same, about the only thing you have to watch out for are low impedance injectors, but those generally have very high flow rates so you aren't too likely to make a mistake there.
JB
Hello! I'm very glad to see someone working with the 4.9. I would really like some more information on the low mount alternator bracket on the first page. Is that a stock piece? I'm contemplating a centrifugal supercharger for my 4.9, and I think that bracket may just be the ticket.
Thanks!
That is a homemade one from Chad Turner's Porsche swap. Those 2 holes in the front are what I will use for my one piece aluminum mount. I am also making adapters to allow a small block Chevy waterpump.Here is a pic of a similar one with a mini-alternator. Also a pic of a Buick V6 supercharger on 4.9 from Pennock's Fiero Forum.
BvcFOzwEGkKGrHqIOKkQEwODCfvCLBMEl0hv99_12.jpg
cid__1121091635.jpg
Very nice, thank you. The buick supercharger is another idea I've been tossing around. Unfortunately, my fabrication skills are next to nil. If you have links to Pennock's where you find the info, that would be super helpful. I've navigated the site, but I haven't had much luck finding what i need.
Keep up the great work!
Michael, Go to Pennocks Fiero forum and use search function, including archives. Type in 4.9. Lots of info. Here is the link. 168 pages! Whew. You better grab a beer or two!http://www.fierosearch.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?start=165&forum=-1&where=SUB&SearchQuery=4.9&Action=DoSearch
Thanks, mgb260, I had searched previously, but I guess I didn't include the archives. Lots of great information! I've actually owned a few fieros, but they're a tad small for me.
When you make that alternator bracket, I'd be interested in purchasing one from you if you want to make an extra. Or perhaps you could post the template.
Good Luck, and keep us posted!
It will be similar to the one pictured,probably 1/2" aluminum. The 2 holes will be closer and bolt to a piece of angle bolted to the front side of block to the 2 existing holes. Then you would have to figure pulleys,belt,alignment. I plan on doing a prototype and then marketing parts in an EBay store, plus small block Chevy water pump adapters and water outlet,4 barrel adapters,distributors,rocker arm kits,complete swap kits and individual parts for RWD conversion.
.
Flywheels,plugged and drilled FWD 3100 and LSC Performance NEW billet steel for only $250.Tom-1-951-245-6367. You have to use Fiero V6 flywheel bolts and pressure plate bolts.Also for RWD you will need Camaro or S-10 style pressure plate with matching throwout bearings or HTOB..
DSC00899.jpg
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Crane has conversion rocker studs for Cleveland, 5/16" bottom and 7/16" top for adjustable roller rocker arms. BB Chevy roller rockers are cheaper than Ford. Homemade guide plates. Been on vacation, but too many things going on.
Speedway motors has Chevy valve keepers that raise spring height .030 or .060. Crane has keepers that lower that amount.So you could get the right height without machineing the heads. You would still have to cut the guide down for Viton Perfect Circle type seals. You could do that yourself with a cutter and hand drill. Cut the guide down in the bowls also. Unshroud combustion chambers and good port job. I'll be using Chevy Z28 or LS1 Beehive springs(undecided) and 1.94 stainless intake and 1.5 exhaust valves. Good for up to .550 lift and 6500 RPM, about 105 lbs @ valve closed and 320 lbs @ .550 lift.
Jim, Flat tappet ? Look's like lifter bores are long ? Potential for roller ?
4.9 uses the longer Chevy V8 roller lifters. I just like roller rockers too.
Low mount alternator setup for serpentine belt. Opens up intake area for 3800 supercharger.
AlternatorBracketsFinal2.jpg
AlternatorBracketsFinal9.jpg
Nice looking project neighbor!
I created this account to ask if there was any updates to this project and you beat me to it within a few hours. I'm mainly interested in all the 4.9 trickery.
I think I just might beat you to it
The car was going to have a 350 in it, but I changed my mind when a snagged up a 4.9l for $150 and 4l60-e from an s-10 for $90
71k on the 4.9l and 27k on the tranny
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs118.ash2/39238_1426862437542_1412239948_31223652_8124255_n.jpg)
I'm in WA as well btw
You might! Haven't had much time lately. Did the torque converter bolt up to the 4l60E?
I sure wish I had as much engine bay space to work with on my planned swap (4.9 in a fwd Saturn).
There's a few completed fwd 4.9 Chevy Citations around the country which sorta inspired me.
http://www.petacar.org/members/Coper/coper.cfm
http://thebaron.110mb.com/v8citation/installation_index.htm
Good Luck with your projects fellow Washingtonians!
Yessir, tc works for fwd, rwd, v6, and v8 setups
I'm no stranger to the swap as I've done multiple 4.9l, 3.8SC and 3.4DOHC Fieros
It's all wired up to run out of the car. I just need to finish the dash wiring, lengthen the driveshaft, finish my trans mount and swap out the leaking water pump
This car has been sitting since Dec of '88 so it has ALOT of work before it's road worthy
Turbo build plus other mods from Pennock's archive: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20060206-1-023354.html
Ebay has quite a few 4.9 motors $200-$500. Cheap gaskets,bearings,etc. Also found pictures of 82-85 4.1 RWD dampener and water pump pulleys. Looks like you could use SBC pulleys with my SBC water pump adapters and the early dampener.
B9-zzSgBGkKGrHqFjkEzKJvvZzBM7WTTRLg_12.jpg
BnmbMQEWkKGrHqRiIEw5MWp4N6BMOTP-yLSw_12.jpg
Link to Pennock's forum thread of M90 supercharger on 4.9. My project has been on the back burner for awhile. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/118088.html
Motor mounts will be about 1 1/2" further forward than 60 degree V6. Also here is an interesting thread from the Fiero forum:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120549.html
Let's bring this thread back from the dead! More goody's for the 4.9 Cadillac!
http://johns49performance.com/index.html
Check the "Scans from 'Automotive Rebuilder,' June 1994" at the bottom of this page.
http://www.nathanbittinger.com/fieroaddiction/caddy49b
Definitely interesting. Also of note, on a few Cadillac models they used a variant of the Aisin AA80E transmission. Called it something other that AA80E though. I wonder if it would fit this engine?
Jim
I very seriously considered this swap back in 2010. Jim N. and I exchanged several PMs about this motor at the time. It is very compact and light and I thought it would fit very nicely in a B engine bay. I had a plan to mount a blower to the intake manifold and use some custom GM OBD1 code called Code59 to run it. It would have been an interesting project. It wasn't long after this that I started considering an LS swap and the rest is history. It would be great to see someone use one in an LBC.
Johns4.9performance engine start up:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/097586.html
Pics of beautiful 4.5 V8 John did for a friend:
4.9image2.jpg
4.9image_1.jpg
1990-4-5-engine_orig.jpg
Buick V6 roller fulcrums and slots added for pedestal rockers from turbo build thread on Pennock's site:
rockernotches.jpg
What does the stock setup look like?
Jim, Those are the stock rockers with the 93-95 3800 Buick V6 rollers instead of aluminum sled with tie bars that seem to break.
cadillacrockers.jpg
The tie bars break because those puny little studs are flexing?
Carl, That may be part of the issue. The 8mm bolt is pointed like a self tapping screw and has pulled out of the bridge also. One guy has redrilled and tapped for 10mm Allen bolt threaded through the bridge with lock nuts. If they would have used steel tie bars like Oldsmobile it probably wouldn't be an issue. You still need a way to guide the rockers. With the slots in the bridge you can use Ford pedestal roller or conventional 1.7 rockers also. 4.9 are 1.6 ratio. Dodge Magnum look similar and their base channels have guide plates for the pushrods. Dodge Magnum rockers pic:
Dodgemagnum.jpg
Another interesting thread on rockers and cams.
http://www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin/fiero/showThread.cgi?forum=Archive-000001&thread=20130314-2-100898&style=printable
That does need sorted out. There was an attempt to use SBC rockers on SBB heads by attaching a base plate but it resulted in stud breakage. Too much flex. I wonder if twin tie-bars would be feasible, intake and exhaust? Might be able to link the tie-bars together for more rigidity.
Jim
Adapting parts from other makes or making parts specific for this motor for performance is the answer. It was never meant for a hot rod and just a daily driver/grocery getter.
It's interesting to me the sled rocker design being used on other engines. I have a Ford Windsor block/ Cleveland head stroker motor and I insisted on using Crane high-lift sled-type rockers with two things in mind;
- The fulcrum has that squared alignment pedestal boss that prevents the rocker arm from rotating
- The sled design of the fulcrum makes the rocker center under the fulcrum and prevents side-to-side shifting.
I have heard that Cheby BB rockers would work on Cleveland heads but I had also heard that roller rockers tended to tick because of the lateral forces from the angle of the pushrod due to the splayed design of the valve angles. As the valve is opened, the centerline of the lateral forces of the pushrod crosses the centerline of the angle of the rocker, pushing it side-to-side.
My Clevor has a roller cam conversion with valve lift of .525".
Paul
Paul, Maybe the Buick roller pedestal would work in the Ford rocker?
Remote oil filter adapter from Chad's Porsche swap site:
oiladapter.jpg
People have asked me my thoughts on porting the 4.9 heads. I agree with David Vizard's theories on porting. 52 percent of bore for max intake valve size and 80 percent of that for max exhaust valve size. This is to prevent cylinder shrouding. That calculates to 1.886 intake valves and 1.509 exhaust valves. SBC 1.84 and 1.50 305 HO valves would be ideal. Unshrouding chamber on outside of both valves and polishing to help prevent detonation at higher compression. Removing cast iron guides and replacing with tapered bottom bronze guides with .500 Viton seals. The floor of the port should be flattened in the corners dropping to the throat and bowl. An old head cut in two for intake and exhaust would be beneficial to see how far you could go. The intake manifold ports that curve around the pushrod hole can be ground out on opposite side to maintain width or a tube pressed in and ground down on that side. If you can get 200cfm intake and 150cfm exhaust at .500 lift, similar to ported SBF or Buick/Rover should support 350HP with the Delta E303 grind cam. Remember to use longer pushrods to compensate for reduced base circle of reground cam.
Recent thread from Pennock's Forum on John's Supercharged 4.9. Studs and stud girdle. ARP rod bolts. I contacted John for more info. WOW! 52,700 hits on this link!
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/142387.html
May have found an answer to replace the aluminum tie bars for the rockers. This would be for the V8 not the V6 shown, plus staggered instead of straight. Ties them all together and prevents rotation.
YT_6669_3__54258.1457299409.1280.1280.jpg
If you are using the Delta E303 cam you have to Dremel the rocker slot longer, also tap for longer rocker bolts Like John explains in this thread:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/098839.html
Broken tie bar pic for thread above. Dremel the connecting piece off and use bottom fixture like above. I will have a prototype laser cut for the 4.5/4.9.
Broken_Rocker_Guide.jpg
Jim,
I have been working on this Ford BB 1.7 rocker arm swap also. This is what I have come up. Mounts to the Cadillac rocker arm rail. Keeps the pedestal fulcrum from rotating. I can cut the orange piece out on a CNC plasma cutter.
Cheers,
John
FeRocker01.jpg
FeRocker02.jpg
John, Very Cool! Welcome aboard!
Thank you, Jim. Its nice to be here!
Do you think these headers would work in a MG with a Cadillac 4.5/4.9 engine?
Cheers
Headers.jpg
Maybe the long tube headers would me a better option for a MG with Cadillac 4.5/4.9 engine.
Cheers
longtubeheaders.jpg
John the shorty ones with a longer, straighter collector without flange would probably work good. Most use the RV8 style that goes through the fenderwell. The hole also lets some of the heat out of the engine compartment. Pictures of RV8 style headers:
mgbv82.jpg
MGBV8_header2.jpg
mgv83.jpg
Thanks a lot for the pics, Jim. Pretty small engine compartment, I see why they are fender dump headers. And what engine is that for? RV8? I'm new to all these engines.
Cheers
John, Buick 215/Rover 3.5, 3.9, 4.0 and 4.6. 75-80 have a little larger engine compartment as it was designed to fit the Rover V8. The width of the 4.5/4.9 is almost exactly the same as the Rover V8 at the header flange. It is much shorter though which allows more room between motor and radiator. Simple motor mount idea:
bowlermotormounts.jpg
John have you thought about a oil pan baffle, Cometic MLS head gaskets and/or electric water pump?
Jim,
Stock 4.5/4.9 oil pan has baffle built in. I'm not real sure about the RWD 4.1 oil pans. Allante 4.5 has a cast aluminum oil pan unique to itself. I can't speak on the Allante pan baffle because I have never seen one of these oil pans live before. I have been pretty happy with Fel-Pro and Victor Reinz head gaskets, but those two are the only ones I will use. Not sure on Cometic MLS gaskets. I'm not a big fan of electric water pumps. Thats one reason I went from SBCs in my Fieros to Cadillac 4.5/4.9 engines. Would the stock Cadillac water pump be a problem in a MG?
Cheers,
John
Thanks for the info on the Rover RV8. I'm very familiar with the Buick 215 engine, but had no idea it was related to Rover..
John
John, I've heard the 4.5/4.9 water pump and gaskets are a problem. The GM Delco brand was best? Do you use gasket sealant and locktite on the bolts? I prefer the old green antifreeze over the Dexcool because it wicks and eats up the gaskets.
Jim,
The only water pump gasket problem I had was installing it. That was because of user error and a cheap eBay gasket. I just use regular antifreeze. A few of the water pump bolts need sealant or it helps to seal it. I have used a modified 4.1 water pump on a 4.9 so I could run a power steering pump.
Suspension.jpg
John, Thanks! The 4.1 water pump looks more like a conventional water pump.
So how about a pic of your ride, Jim? 1973 MGB , 260 Ford V8. Very Cool! Sounds like Sunbeam Tiger inspired!
Cheers
My73 MGB was originally for the 260 but now I have a 65 Sunbeam Alpine for the Ford V8. I have a 93 4.9 in pieces in my shop in WA. My projects have been on hold the last 6.5 years as I am in AZ working in a Power Plant. 3 more months before I retire back in WA. I have helped a few on this and other boards and plan on a performance parts business similar to yours but not on the Caddy V8. My parts business will be more to fill the gaps on what other vendors don't offer. I probably have at least a year of home improvement projects first!
I had an extra 4.9 intake manifold and decided a cross section view would be nice. Perhaps a starting place for a custom intake manifold?
Cheers
4.9head-maifold01.jpg
4.9head-maifold.jpg
John, Looks like the port spacing is pretty common. SBC and SB Mopar intakes have been modified to fit other motors. Or fabricated
sheet metal intake. Here is a pic of SB Mopar cheap offshore Air Gap intakes made to fit a Cadillac V8. I think you are onto something!
caddymopar.jpg
It would be nice to 3D print an intake manifold for the 4.5/4.9 engine.
I'm building a set of 180 degree headers for my Cadillac 4.9 V8 engine. These headers will even out the exhaust pulses from left to right engine banks, increase exhaust scavenging and produce more of a European V8 sound. Cheers
180Headers01.jpg
180Headers02.jpg
John, Very cool!
Sweet!
I finished mocking up the 180* headers. Ready to test fit in car. Also working on an adjustable cam timing sprocket.
180Headers09.jpg
CamGear01.jpg
John, Great work! I noticed when I pulled my motor apart the nylon cam thrust button was brittle and fell apart. Are you using something better?
Hi,
Thanks for the compliment on the exhaust. Its been a fun project. I have never had a problem with the cam thrust button before. Not sure what to tell you on that. I'll look into it.
Cheers
The 180* headers are finished and installed in the car! Sounds great! Kind of like an older Can Am sports car. A bigger performance gain then I had expected. Cheers
180Headers13.jpg
180Headers15.jpg
180Headers14.jpg
180Headers16.jpg
This is what 180 degree headers with dual exhaust sounds like. Sounds like two four-bangers running together in unison live and in stereo. Probably not the exhaust note for everyone, but I like it! Cheers.
https://www.facebook.com/100011458479905/videos/1110335446025061/
New LS inspired stand alone fuel injection for the Cadillac 4.5/4.9 engine. Electronics are Fast Retrofit TPI Kit.
Fuelinjection08mini.jpg
Fuelinjection10mini.jpg
John, Excellent work! Over 60,000 hits on this thread! Keep the idea's coming!
That certainly is a handsome EFI plenum!
Jon Olshewski, Auto shop teacher at Salt Lake City, UT East high school and his students are working on an interesting project. They discovered that 215/Rover heads bolt on with the inside headbolts and pushrod and lifters line up. Outside bolts are on the edge of the heads and would need material added for those bolts. Here are some pics of the 215 Olds heads on the 4.9 Caddy block.
headson1.jpg
pushrod.jpg
topheadson1.jpg
Jon here.
The other slightly inconvenient flaw to this is the valves are backwards. As in the camshaft lobes aren't for the correct valve. We have talked about running the engine as a Hot Vee setup or custom making a cam blank and getting a fresh one made...
Engineering and educational aspects aside, what is the benefit using 215 heads on a Caddy engine ?
Caddy 4.9 has iron heads.
Amazing idea.
I guess the inlet manifold would be the next bit of fun.
What about the rocker oiling?
V8
Tell them to find a set of aluminum '64 Buick 300 heads if going to all that trouble. ;)
I mentioned the Buick 300 heads. He actually was looking at the TA heads. Pushrod oiling. The cam is the biggest ordeal.
Carl, remember when we were trying to figure out a spider for the short V6 roller lifters for the Buick/Rover. Looks like the Caddy one would line up perfect.
Pic of 4.9 gasket on 215 head. Bore spacing and inside headbolt holes are perfect.
caddygasketon215.jpg
The catch to both of these is that the Cadillac head is only 2/3 the actual material size of the Buick 215 head. So in reality the Buick head is even lighter than this technically in what it replaces.
received_936411320477587.jpeg
received_507093326998459.jpeg
https://youtu.be/gkRPwE55Iuo
In our application we are all about weight reduction. In race trim this has body panels on it.
Basically 2200 lbs or 1000kg and All Wheel Drive.
Once you get it sorted, that will be a hoot in RallyCross.
Looks like you may have some studs and exhaust bolts wanting to occupy the same space.
That Caddy engine is a wet liner, open deck block.
I bet that there's room to move the outer head bolts inboard in the block enough to fit.
The rover cam looks close enough to fit as well, with some creative machine work.
The only real PITA would be the dist drive gear. Machine the bearing journal off the rover cam and machine the caddy drive gear and journal to press fit back onto the rover cam. Pin, through bolt or braze the whole thing together and your good to go.
Uh, I know a guy with billet, round lobe, cam blanks ?
Art.
I don't think this design will allow what you are suggesting.
IMG_20210723_1715347082_resize_32.jpg
Screenshot_20210725-202635_resize_52.jpg
Roverman,
Are those cam blanks for a Cadillac?
Roverman has Rover blanks but, that is what you need for Fred's suggestion. Delta Cams may be able to modify and swap around the distributor gear if you send them the blank with a Caddy stock cam. They do a high performance regrind for the Caddy cam based on the Ford E cam specs for the Fiero guys.
Just so I understand, why 215 heads on a cast iron caddy block ? Anyone put an RV8 in a Fiero ?
Art, 4.9 has aluminum block with iron heads.
Ok, so why 215 heads on an aluminum caddy block ?
Art, To get rid of the iron heads! To make the motor even lighter.
So after seeing the caddy block naked, I see the issues. Relocating that row of studs is doable, sealing the head is problematic.
I think that even that spray on seal that makes your screen boat float won't save us.
However, the fix for the Lover engine can save the day!
Pull the cyls. and deck the block 0.500 thou. Machine a new deck from aluminum plate and sandwich it between the block and the Rover head. The inside studs line up so everyone can play nice there. The outer studs present a few more options. I would move the studs to line up with the rover head. Or you could countersink the caddy stud into the deck plate and drill the plate for the rover pattern. You could also weld the plate to the block but a failure would be disappointing. They all give the opportunity to utilize the American 6 bolt pattern if you wanted that. The other option that presents itself is drydecking the block by utilizing the deck plate to stop the wet cyls from walking around and meeting the neighbors.
Machine the inside edge of the decks to accommodate a sheet metal plate to seal up the valley and you are good to go.
There's more stuff but the leader of the opposition just poured me a scotchy scotch. so she's purchased something!
Cheers
Fred
Maybe you could run studs or long countersunk capscrews from that plate down into the main web to tie it all together and stabilize the liners and tie the heads down. Maybe external ribs/bolt bosses heilarced to the outside of the block could be used to do the same thing though and eliminate the plate.
Jim
I Like the idea of the deck plate surrounding the liners. Kind of like a girdle on the top of the block. The intake side bolts are long and go down to the main web. The outer countersunk bolts would too. The outer head studs would be attached to the 1/2" deck plate. With a valley cover and spacers any Buick/Rover intake would work. Maybe a 300 intake would fit better?
Yea,yea, kinda like you would deck plate an RV8 for Lotus heads ? Why is a cad block so superior to an RV8 block,
it warrants all this work ? Forged crank, stronger, sustain more hp. ?
It's what they had. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvGUamjFrjA
A set of TA heads on that block should work rather well I would think.
Jim
Even Buick 300 heads would be better than the 215 heads.
He mentioned a "hot vee" setup - suggesting maybe the heads fit on backwards? intake from the sides, exhaust up and out the middle? I'd love to see what that looks like!
edit: I can't see how a reversed head could work, but just because it looks so fun here's an engine with a side-fed ITB set up with top exhaust.
hotvee.jpg
Nope. He mentioned the valve cover sealing over part of the intake.
I hereby rename "hot vee", Indy Jones. Parnelli not needed. Might be tight in a "B" ? Let's get serious. 7" shorter ? Forged crank ? Cader V16 ? Onward, Art.
I have 8620 billet, round lobe cam blanks, 4.0L up RV8. Bearing journals are +.03" os. Perhaps will machine to fit Cad 4.9L.
If anyone has these two dimensions, please ?
I f anyone has these two dimensions please ? Thanks, Art.
Art.
Miata Lemons car build with some performance tips:
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=35746
Pic of 88-89 4.5 dual plane intake to be used with 4.1 or 4.5 valve covers and 4 barrel conversion:
s-l160014.jpg
85-87 single plane intake:
s-l160016.jpg
Perhaps this helps explain the "weird" center intake ports on each side ? Runner length vs velocity, with a single plane ? I want to install an Eaton M112. I suspect a modded single plane will work better, Jim ?
This guy used a M90:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127611.html
Another:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125735.html
The single plane small throttle bores for the early 4.5 are a carryover from the 4.1. Probably same intake. Need to be bored bigger. The dual plane on later 4.5 and 4.9 are much larger.
Art, The Allante lower intake would be best for a Supercharger. Will only work with 90 4.5 PFI or 4.9 heads.
s-l160019.jpg
It would be pretty easy to make a blower intake for that.
When they redesigned the lifter mount did they run the individual lifter bolts into the head?
Jim
Jim, They made a couple of dog legs in the valve cover sealing area due to injector locations. If a person wanted to go carb or TBI the injector holes would have to be plugged. 88-90 4.5 are TBI and 91-95 4.9 are PFI. 88-90 4.5 and 91-95 4.9 all use the ribbed reinforced block. The only carryover is the 4.5 used the old style oil pump that should be swapped to the 4.9 pump. The 4.5 has shorter stroke and longer rods than the 4.9. Everyone should avoid the 4.1 motor except a few parts like the oil pan or valve covers.
Jim, that reminds me. The lifter angle of the older motors with flat tappets and removing Zinc from oil caused early wear to the cam lobes. The gasket materials and Dexcool anti-freeze were issues. Also the early blocks had porosity and cracking issues. The small 4. 1 was also stressed pushing the weight of a heavy car. As far as stock net HP rating the 4.9 with 200HP and 275TQ look pretty good compared to 302 Ford or 307 Chevy that were not over 180HP and 250TQ. The 4.5 Allante was rated 220HP due to the better intake manifold.
I see their logic. Big mains give more rigidity and crank pin overlap.Small rods reduces I loads and makes a smaller rod ark. Plus it has hyd. rolled fillets on RJ's
Onward, Art.
The 1968-1971 Chevy 307 was rated 200HP/300TQ with a 2 bbl carb.
Carl, I meant after 72 when they went to "Net" HP. The Caddy if around pre-smog would still be higher than the Ford or Chevy!
Got it.
Not completely sold on this gross vs net HP business.
QuoteNot completely sold on this gross vs net HP business.
https://youtu.be/yHHLDDrIce4?si=irwtqDFP1aCyJROw
He was wrong about one thing, the fan drag he showed was probably pretty close. At room temperature it would be fully engaged and only disengages as the temp of the air from the radiator goes up.
Running the fan inside a shroud and with resistance to airflow from the radiator might increase the load some, I don't know how much.
But to me the takeaway from this was that between the fan, headers, and intake system that we run on the MGB we probably don't have that much difference between the gross and net HP since we are basically just dragging along the water pump and alternator.
Jim
Power steering Hydraulic pump and AC compressor was also figured in the Net HP ratings. 74-84 had more smog control, ran hotter and leaner. Also had retarded timing, so were pretty gutless.
My 215 is a 1963 JN block 11:1 comp. rated 200 HP that was rebuild back all standard. Rear wheel dyno'd at 162 HP. In this case, gross & net horsepower are very close to the same.
The '67-'69 Chevy 302 real world HP was considerably higher than the advertised gross HP. :)
88-89 4.5 has smaller Rover sized valves. 90-91 Allante 4.5 has the same larger valves as 91-95 4.9. The Allante 4.5 has longer connecting rods and the shorter 4.9 pistons. This may be helpful for those that mix and match parts.
Hypothetical 4.9 build. Ported heads, cam specs similar to Ford 5.0 HO roller. 600cfm Holley carb, headers.
4.9_page-0001.jpg
Looks a little better spread out to show the nice torque curve.
4.92_page-0001.jpg
4.9_page-00011.jpg
Is there a flow bench report for ported 4.9L.heads ? Using an M90 blower on a 4,9L. sounds out-matched. Any temp rise and boost data ?
Thanks, Art
More interest in a MGB swap here:
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mg-engine-swaps-forum.40/4-9-cadillac.4766077/
Did I mention Honda H23 rods and Toyota R22 pistons ? Boring/honing wet cylinders much easier/cheaper.( lathe and horizontal hone). Mod SBF hedders to fit. A better aluminum head is on the way.
Onward, Art.
Art this page has some info on porting and blocking the heat riser on the center exhaust ports, On a very high performance build I would add steel inserts for the head bolt threads and rocker support threads. Art, are you making heads or using Rover heads with a deck plate and using your roller cam? If the later I think you would have to eliminate the distributor and use crank trigger ignition. Megajolt? Very curious as to what Jack Collins comes up with, on putting one in a MGB.
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=35746&p=4
I'm sure there's been something in this thread that speaks to the potential advantage of this over a Rover or Buick 215 build. I'm especially curious about this vs. a stroker Rover 3.5, as I will have some parts left over from my stroker Buick 300 build (crank, heads, 4BBL intake, etc.), and also have a spare Rover 3.5. I saw mentioned the possibility of using Rover heads on this Caddy block--would the 300 heads also work? Mostly curiosity at this point, but who knows.
Eric, The advantage is to the Cadillac motor. The aluminum heads are lighter and breathe better than the iron Caddy heads. I think it could be done with a special reground cam because the valve arrangement is different. It would be unique.
Jim, got it, thanks.
2 and 4 barrel carb/Sniper adapters for EFI intakes on Ebay: Of course you would plug the injector holes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/306905933519?_skw=2+and+4+barrel+carburetor+to+gm+tbi+intake&itmmeta=01KTMDXYNTN8R2QK728QPT5G3Y&hash=item477504e6cf:g:MTAAAeSw2rlp8GQI&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAABEGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xCeL3j7posG5V%2BSUlxHOiGrR7gzbYLNvNur70zjxihgpjcK9NKjmfcfcy7XauynLMCLJYAdJfPtMGUKhMnB%2BB%2FhXRM1nz%2FC2NLIhZCZ5FiYUHXs8LMe3LhntT2wojgfxUX0ySymWvplGgOi1Ndla5cwJ1G9jWvQda%2BxdEfMRDWEqFoVw0PuLDzIxSb%2FVJiBfEwXhnl%2BZrZ7oH6LSmt5dw84pkuAXCxdC6za%2FB4AKdEBXurKbnlgWuaFZYCGKpM%2F9STvlNw%2BBuVlQH0Xyadh3pj2dL7GU1g9eESv0RTGsf3Nlsc3%2FHIjr%2FfZZcz%2BVAaTGe%2BV6qMVwH67XcK7HTuLS4cy%7Ctkp%3ABFBMiuv3jdVn
https://www.ebay.com/itm/137151002809?_skw=holley+4+barrel+carburetor+to+gm+tbi+intake+adapter&itmmeta=01KTME3WYCXMZY1CPNQEY9JR8F&hash=item1feed638b9:g:6tQAAeSww5Npu8aC&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAABEGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xB6CqVd2leeoy4GIefFiPyH4K7WAUviQpEg4hZIpV%2FWSg%2BcuVIknWPz9HOaJ20r3vRLfI6XQ6j8qtg16NLMaHmarRkRYZMVudHeqeCxO43ixX%2Fok4%2FFfunIDGFMJ%2BVvYiugKgXntIN%2Bl5ZNNfJMuCu7rSLaF%2FqPzjpclv0PAc1gdTCA4ulS58AIy14ufn%2FfDpXgM5MCXYUMNdZZId9MjEOfnaZvkX50NAIZ9g3d%2B14wUgSEctxyaQWQptwGuf%2Fw1WJTK2H0umh08WtUnA1BBpPl4HrZkUQxtBJoTULTtIaLWVq0qfiFzdtXScrjjz6bAzKsa0XMG4VdrulThfyPLoCq%7Ctkp%3ABFBMsM-PjtVn