Hey guys. I started thinking about liners because Mike wasn't talking. I figured I'd look for some potential options.
One is Darton manufactured "blanks":
A longer 3.7" liner that would work great for the monster stroke 350 Rover:
T-3750 3.700(bore) 3.975(OD) 0.138(thickness) 6.100(length) 0.650(flange) 4.250(flange dia.)
6.1" length is an extra 3/4" longer. Good news there.
On another thought, going just a touch bigger but not all the way to 4":
TA performance 3.8l replacement liners for their custom race block.
OD: 4.100
Flange Height: 0.3230 - 0.3240
Flange Dia: 4.340
Total Height: 6.000
Not bad. That makes the wall thickness 150 thou. Not sure how much block is left with 4.1" bored out of it. With this sleeve though we could use the later supercharged 3800 pistons with the 6" honda rod and an offset ground 4.6 crank to 3.52" stroke. That would make a 5.2l Rover.
Just thought I'd start the ball rolling.
Problem with the "bigger" liners is how do you make a thinwall, "wet liner" work in a paper mache block, previously designed for dry liner, work? Drag only motor- no problemo, fill it with "Hardblock". In the real world-Mike or Nic ?? roverman
OK, You guys are converting me! Check out www.mellingcylindersleeves.com and download/print their catalog. They are primarily to repair cast iron blocks,but I think that being thinner they would preserve some strength in the block. In adition to their catalog they accept custom orders for high performance flanged liners! I bet their prices are much better than the afrtermarket,plus if you order them through a auto shop you could get a discount.
How thick is the stock liner? Or could you bore out the stock liner and put a thin liner inside? You could bore bigger at the top for the flange. I don't know if its possible,just a thought.
Nice, Jim. I remember a few years back I was looking at melling but they didn't have online catalogs. I had totally forgotten about it. Thanks!
OK so peep those 3.8" sleeves with the .094" thickness. Those are only 88 thou bigger OD than the westwood liners I bought. Could work good. Doesn't look like they have flanges though...
Yeah, but they say they can make custom liners and their Hi performance ones have flanges. Nic, what do you think about boring out the stock liners as much as you can and putting thin liners,iron to iron. How thick are the stock ones?Outside diameter?You could leave a flange on the bottom of the original and have the new liner .002 high for an O ring. I'm thinking the newer 4.6 Rover might be a good block since it already has the 300 main bearing size and larger bore to start with.
Yeah. I'm thinking the 4.6 is the only option for trying to retain some block around a larger liner because of the better standards applied to the casting process. Either way it's still a gamble, one I'm probably willing to take.
The 4.0 was prone to cracking because of the attempt by Rover to control emissions with higher operating temps. I guess if I was going to hog out the whole liner for wet liners I'd use a 4.0. Might as well. Like Tony said, Sure fixes the cylinder cracking problem! LOL
I don't think there is any advantage to the thin liner inside the other iron liner.
Leaving the liner proud by a few thou is always a good idea for better sealing.
Could be custom liners are the only way to get what we want.
I suppose the pivotal point here is dry or wet? Either way, sensible amout of block filler should help. Maximum heat and pressure,(combustion), occurs approximately up to only 15 deg. atdc. Herman Lewis,master guru of AMC V8's, claims they run "cooler" with block filler ! Whoudda thunk? If your pushin the, paper mache envelope, you'll use-up some paper. When asked about all the 215's that were "wounded" in develpement for "Indy", Mickey Thompson replied," If your gonna teach a cat to live with canaries, your gonna use-up a few canaries". Long may he race. roverman.
That's a good point. Get a block and see what happens. I dig...
OK. I think I'm hearing you now. You're saying go ahead and fill the block like halfway up the cylinder or whatever distance. I bet that would help the rigidity... Interesting....
"Herman" fills to bottom of h2o pump ports. I thinkin, reduce block volume by 50% increases velocity by like amount? Drag racers been, "groutin" forever. A Mid-West, Pro-Stock racer, code named-Bubba, uses the stuff to make a "Mondo" bore motor with replaceable dry/flanged sleeves.He merely greases em., before-the-pour ! Hey Mike... I'm tellin-all ! roverman.
Nix-See how I give you the will to do some investigating! Its a blast trying to figure things out. I really dont know what the liners are but the machinist told me if they work he will spill the beans.
Damn machinist! Why do they halft to be so tight lipped?? "The Chipmaker"
I dont know but I think it is the mentality of it works here you go and he is the hero. If it does not then well it was a strupid idea and less I know the better to not dig into it! Smart move.
Regardless of whether it works: What's the OD of the liner? I'm just wondering how large puts us into the wet sleeve territory.
Anybody else can take that too. It could be no larger than 3.9". It would be nice to get out to 4.1" or something before cutting through.
Nic, It's "out-there". That special process, per alien unit is $131. They "may" in landings of 8. No spillin-Nic.
OK. Interesting. I haven't forgotten about that either. I figure a 4.0 with cracked cylinder walls would be a great candidate. From what we were talking through I don't think that would even need block filler although if it indeed helps the engine run cooler it may be worth it.
So by "unit" are you saying the whole assembled part? That would be frickin' amazing. Or are you saying per hole.
Nic, Closely guarded, alien technology, don't come cheep ! It's each, finish honed. There's always "Ian of Wales". roverman- senior groopie.
Hey, junkyard shoppers,4.5/4.9 Cadillac wet liners just wiggle out of block.Stock bore is only 3.623 but commonly overbored to 3.66(Northstar-to make 5.1) I wonder if there is enough meat to go 3.8? Here are some pictures of some bored for 3.66 Northstar pistons.
DSCF0211.jpg
DSCF0234.jpg
8liners.jpg
Jim, If ever-a-liner, "begged" for block filler? Any of those Caddys have alum. heads? 4 bolt mains?.Bore spacing is ? Thanks, roverman.
Iron heads. Pretty substantial main caps. Don't know bore spacing. 60 degree V6 bellhousing pattern.Quite a few 300 HP,some turbo. Here's some pics.
headgasket.jpg
DSCF0231_1.jpg
DSCF0238.jpg
Nic and all.Anyone sonic test their 4/4.6L after removing orig. sleeves? Their gonna get-wet first between companion cyls.
Jim, so the whole lifter package, "bolts-in"? Looks like Norstar pistons in a 2 valve? Deep Y block looks hungry for flat girdle. Modular motor take Norstar heads? I'm guessin 4.36" bore centers? Thanks, roverman.
Roverman,Turbo engines use quad 4 pistons in the 4.9. Maybe those Aluminum heads on that block.Oh-Oh, I don't want to give you any ideas! LOL.
p145886_image_large.jpg
p145888_image_large.jpg
p145887_image_large.jpg
Do you have any idea what the weight is? The lifter package is bolt-in... Huh.
What is the bore spacing? How about those heads. Those are Quad-4 heads? Do the Caddy guys use those? What's the bore spacing on the Quad-4?
Yeah thats great Jim, You didn't want to give ME any ideas. Now you got the "King" of tangients-Nic, all excited! roverman- one thought,one thought only.
Jim,Nic and clan.Wikipedia says Northstar has 4" bore "centers",with forged crank 2003-up. Prob. same-o as Quad and Aurora and "maybe",4.9L-Jim?Those 4.9L liners look, too thin at the bottom, to be bored very far? Jim, You gonna flow bench a head?
Roverman, Those liners were already bored out .040 for Northstar pistons. Max for the stock liners. A shop in Tucson,AZ called Bud's Outback specializes boring the liners on an exchange basis. They also do Northstar work. Look in the Pennock's Fiero Archives on Will's Northstar build. A little too high tech for me. The 4.9 heads were notorious for small ports/low to midrange torque.Some people go to larger valves, but that just shrouds the valves. For a 3.62 bore motor,1.77 intake and 1.50 exhaust are pretty good. You might gain 25 HP by porting and gasket matching.
Yup it looks like 100mm (3.938") bore centers. It's got to be a short engine. I've found one reference for 360lbs., says with flexplate and alternator. Not bad. I wonder what the overall dimensions are.
Jim, are those pix yours? Or do you have one of these laying around? Put a tape to it if you do. Let us know how long the block is and maybe block with waterpump. Deckheight? Width? How about width with the Quad4 heads. Cool.
Just interested. I'm probably never going to attempt a build of one of these, I'm too heavily invested in the Rover/Buick I guess.
That reminds me. I've got two bare blocks heading my way from Wilmington NC. I'll be making bore tests as soon as they get here. I figured I'd start with boring out the liners to 4" holes and see what it checks out at. That's another 100 thou larger than needed for the Westwood flanged repair liners for the 3.7" rovers. I'm guessing it's gonna be pretty thin if not breaking through. Don't know till you try though, right?
Quote"If your gonna teach a cat to live with canaries, your gonna use-up a few canaries"
So let's say it is thin. I wonder how thin is too thin? Would block filler help this? Then the other block will get the same treatment. I figure then I'll pick the worst one and hog it out the rest of the way and make some internal measurements. I'm hoping 4.25" will not be goo big so as to block off the water passages or impede flow. Anybody got a guess here? Then I'll start with some 4" experimentation along with Mike.
These engines are fun to mess with. (dangling participle. Sorry it's regional ya know.)
I got a dangling particle too but you don't see me going around bragging about it. That what you mean by regional?
Man, I can't believe how this cold weather slows me down. Anyway I know what you mean by invested in these engines. If I was to start over at this point I'd probably be with Pete and go towards the LS series engines. It seems like a good motor and also looks like pretty much everything we need is already there. Funny, I went with the 215 because of the light weight. Then I added the extra weight of a blower and an iron block. Up to now that hasn't bothered me but it does make you question your decisions from time to time. I still think it's going to be a great combination, and the same for the MGB-Roadmaster, but now that this new light weight chebby engine is becoming affordable it is probably time to reconsider engine choices for a new build. I just might know where there is a decent MGB for sale at a price I can afford.... who knows? So how much sense does it really make to go with the monster overbore on a BOPR block? Sure, it's building something unique, and we know bigger bores allow bigger valves and better breathing, but by my figgering it's going to take at a bare minimum something over a grand to do the job and probably a good bit more. Doesn't it make more sense to put that money into an aluminum block that already has a big bore? I'm not saying that has to be an LS, it just looks like that one might be leading the charge. Personally I'd dearly love to go out and buy an alloy BBB but I just don't have the money for it. It's got some really big bores though.
Jim
Maybe "Mike" will have dangling liners, but we don't have to, do we?? Maybe some of us are drawn to the -"Wild BOAR", simply to go where no fool has gone? I get get no special,"thrill" from re-tracing someone els's road. I want to make my own, right or wrong-Dammit. In leiu of "forcing", 4"+ bores without adequate head flow=bad idea.Initially, its looks more like romance than happy ending. I would appreciate a good lead on "EB" welding for my Stg II castings. Anybody? Thanks,roverman.
I'm totally with you, Jim. When I started the LS series engines were out of my price range. They are way more affordable now. It is a great platform. Well thought out and tough. Big bores too. It really doesn't make practical sense to do this. I just can't help myself. It's what I'm into I guess. I love the puzzle of it and the potential solution. Fun. It is sorta that "Everest" appeal. It's totally impractical.
We are trained at an early age here to drag out the vowels as long as possible and to dangle participles at the end of any sentence we can. LOL! Ya know. MN thing. That's what I mean by regional.
I suppose I'm somewhat, passion driven with the BOAR. Otherwise I would just use well built"rotarys", right. Most space efficient,hp to weight.plentifull, yadayada.... Viva La Diff, roverman.
Melling # CSL 308 F, best price? I'm trying to "source", ACL brand, FSY3780-SF,(box) Aussie, I think it's actually "made" by "EC or EI,(Tsubaki),Japanese?,printed on sleeve, as retailed by Wildcat.
Please excuse me if this is common knowledge, but in reading this thread it seems no one has mentioned it so I though I would.
According to "How to Power tune Rover V8s" by Des Hammill, a stock 3.9-4.6L block was bored to 3.880in/98.6mm to accept the liner and if perfectly cast stock, has a wall thickness of 0.120in/3.0mm.
So it seems that complete elimination of the block cylinder walls would occur if the block was bored to 4.00"/101.6mm
The book also gives the specs Wildcat Engineering uses for fitting 96mm bore dry tophat liners:
Block bored to 3.8975in/98.947mm
Liner OD = 3.900in/99.05mm
Liner ID = 3.780in/96.0mm
Block walll thickness with perfectly cast block = 0.1025in/2.653mm
-Robert
Robert, "Tsubaki", they make good chain,and is the exact sleeve you describe. Melling is 3.9" bore, posibly to be potted, in Rover or 4.9L Cad.,(high strength cast alloy). Thanks, roverman.
Thanks Robert. It's been a couple years since I read Des Hammill's book. Thanks for the post.
Welding in the 4.5" OD T6 tube is looking more and more necessary. I guess I'm gonna learn how to TIG weld. LOL! At least I got two blocks to practice on.
Ford New Holland 800 tractor sleeve. 4.1 O.D., 3.9 I. D. $29.95. Not sure of length.
800tractor.jpg
OK, wrap that sukka in piano wire,(330 ksi. tensile vs. 24 ksi. for sleeve), prior to insertion, and potting with "hardblock", now you got a strong sleeve,"if" you don't let it rust. If the flange od. is 4.24" or less, you can use the piano wire as a "thread form", and screw the sleeve into the block. Wait a minute,Tractor sleeve?... Nic are you lissnin? Isn't it pity that "only", 6 different configurations of,low cost,forged LS-1 pistons fit that "Nic" type sleeve ? roverman.
Braze the ends of that piano wire to the sleeve so it'll stay put.
Jim
Also LA sleeve.
A set of theirs in my Moto Guzzi with VW Mahle pistons.
B.
I'm still waiting on the blocks to show up. Can't wait to start cutting. We'll see what happens. I'm feeling like Jim right about now just waiting for the damn things to get here.
I'm gonna be in LA in March. I'll see if I can tour the facility.
Yes thanks Jim, I was also considering plugging ends of wire into "complimentary" holes in the sleeve prior to brazing/silver soldering.? Speaking of "heli brazing"...segway, Nic and I are considering for retention of "processed" alum sleeves in block. We hope you have some wisdom to share ? 2010-make hp. within. roverman.
Probably silver soldering is a better choice, since elevating the temp of the wire anneals it, but once it wraps the cylinder a time or two there will be minimal tension on the end. I'd braze the top end first and then wrap with tension and then clamp and braze the bottom, thereby pre-stressing the winding a bit. As for joining the block and alloy sleeves, that could be soldered. It would have to be done in an inert atmosphere oven under tightly controlled conditions but would give better control of the joint with minimal clean-up and would be as strong as a cast single piece. (The tubes would be stronger.)
Jim
Jim N., Who makes that New Holland liner? That could work with the welded in T6 bore. I was reading that Hot Rod article Wesley posted and got some ideas. The Manley new Hemi flat top pistons have a 1.2" compression height. Those coupled with the 6" honda rod and an offset ground 4.6 crank with 3.5" stroke puts the piston 10 thou down the hole, and enough metal for valve reliefs. SWEET!
Nic, pic is from Alexander's Tractor parts also available at Yesterday's Tractor. Ford New Holland model 800 gas or diesel. 4.1 O.D. 3.9 I.D. $29 something each.
800tractor.jpg
Perfect. Thanks Jim.
http://www.alexanderstractorparts.com/atpcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=47_48&products_id=1596
Thats great, but do they sell piianno wiar ? Feel the tension.
Funny you guys should mention piano wire for cylinder wall strengthening... The Stanley Steam Car company built their firetube boilers with thin outer shells that were wrapped very tightly in piano wire (I forget what gauge). The practice made for a very strong (600 PSI working pressure) and "light" boiler.
To put that in a bit of perspective; 1gallon of water at 10PSI steam pressure is said to have the explosive capacity of about 1/2 stick of dynamite. The Stanley 30hp boilers hold about 5 gallons or more at regular operating level...
Of course, the piano wire wrapping is no longer acceptible for new boilers.. The ASME would never endorse that practice.
OK, how about this for a high tech approach. We start with thin wall chrome-moly tubing and have it plasma coated on the inside to form an iron/nickel alloy liner and then heat treat it for maximum strength. Use those the same way you'd use any cast iron liners but much stronger.
Jim
Whoa. That's pretty cool. Sorta like a Nickel silicone coating on the aluminum. I bet it could be pretty thin too. Huh...
Yes, and if you apply the right coatings at the top and bottom it could be oven brazed (or soldered) into the aluminum block as well. Could do Art's cam journal plugs at the same time.
Jim
Jim, When you say "oven brazed", same as say "heli-brazing"? Requires an inert atmosphere? Minimum temp required ? What kind of tensile strength available? We're tryin to bypass tig., if possible. Thanks,roverman.
Correct Art, brazed (or soldered) in an inert gas oven. Very common industrial process. Used extensively in alloy radiator manufacture, anyone who has the equipment is well versed in the process.
Jim
This just-in..."The Green Acres Special", tractor pulled by lead dog-"Rover" ,has all the locals torked outta shape! Dimentionally speaking- it wasn't easy, fitting a 3.908" bore, a 4.100" od., a 4.242" flange dia.x.183" thick and a 6and15/16" height, kinda tuff ,on Rover, since he started life as a 3.5" pup. He be the Big dog now ! But wait, there's more ! roverman is makin a tap ! Forget the pooch. I'm gonna screw the sleeve, into the block. "That certainly takes care of the crack behind the sleeve problem"/lol.
Art, That tractor sleeve sounds good! How are you gonna cut the length down? Probably on a lathe?Are you gonna leave a step on the bottom of the block?What sealer? Too many questions?
Jim, Yea, I know a machinist that works reel-cheep ,for himself. Don't know about step. At 4.1" dia, mostly, air down there! I figure first block to be, guinee pig/lemming? Maybe "boost-it" jus-to-see ? roverman
Clan, Just did the math. Looks like approx. 170 feet per sleeve, based on .031" dia wire and 32 tpi. I'm thinkin, better to thread sleeve with wire profile at say 16 tpi. This would, leave block/thread in block stronger.More area under flange. Provide more surface area for thermal transfer,(cooling). A meer 85' of wire per sleeve. Thoughts ?, why yes, roverman, you need to do math. You see, if you use 14awg. wire(.063"dia.) vs. .031", tensile will be over 4X at 935 lbs ! With 10 tpi., you'll only need 43' max per sleeve = $1.35 ? Stronger, cheeper and less work, born of good math ! Gemini...the "other" head.
Probably work good, in my case with Caddy wet liner, I found 58,000psi tensile 1/8" wall steel(bored to 4.099) to press tractor liners into. How much difference in expansion between steel and cast iron liners? I'm thinking pretty close,so only .001 interference shrink fit. 2 piece step liner. Chamfer steel liner and lower block for 4" Viton O ring.Use Hypalon sealer also. 4.25" O.D.. Same length as top thick part of stock liner with just tractor liner shrunk pressed(4.098) into lower block.
Jim, thermal expansion differential between non-stainless steel and cast iron should be quite low. "Loctite Sleeve Retainer" ? Block filler ? LS or Hemi pistons ? "Tractor Supply", like Alexander's should give a discount, for qty. of (8).Caddy is designed for wet sleeve. Rover was designed for 3.5" dry. I feel compelled to," thread" to prevent dread. roverman.
Clan, I could use a "lead" on this one. I believe the best tool/attachment, for bore threading to be a "Geometric Internal Threading Head". Any brand really, as long as it will "repeat". Body dia. of approx. 3.9" max. This size will probably have 4-6 dies,(jaws). I will probably start with Acme thread at close to 10 tpi., and re-grind the profile ? With this type of head, jaws collapse inward when thread lengh/depth is reached. Anybody ? Thanks, roverman.