I'm going to do this mod so I figured I'd start a thread about it. The mod is to add a bypass from one lifter oil gallery to the other to better balance oil flow between the two sides.
I measured the gap between the block and the flywheel. There is 1 1/2" to work with. Should be more than enough. SWEET! I'll go look for parts at Ace tonight. Seems like a pretty simple mod. We'll see how it comes out.
My intuition is that this might be a smart mod for racers, and it might make a real good tech article topic too. Please take lots of photos!
Cool! Ok.
I took another look at the 215 Buick block and it has a drilled passage at the front of the block between the lifter galleys. Your mod is already there! For some strange reason on the larger SBB blocks they did it differently, resulting in a threaded hole in the side of the block near the oil pump, which the 215 block does not have.
Jim
I'm not seeing it on the Rover block, I don't think. Here's a pic. Can you see it here?
(http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/5/web/2357000-2357999/2357894_210_full.jpg)
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4432/2881/23578940046_large.jpg)
On this block it's the front cam bearing that has the passage to transfer oil across...
FWIW here's a couple of oil gallery schematics from an F85/Olds 215 (which is probably same as Buick). Not sure about a Rover block, though.
100_49901152x864.jpg
100_49911152x864.jpg
Take your photo from the rear of the block facing the front and you'll see it.
Jim
SHit! I can't do that. It's all assembled. Does anybody got a late Rover block laying around they could take a pic of the inside front of the lifter valley to show what Jim's talking about?
I found a pic but the rez is too low. Here's where you're talking about?
(http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/5/web/2357000-2357999/2357894_211_full.jpg)
bypass.jpg
I can kinda make out a pressed in brass cup. Is that what I'm seeing?
Maybe I should do the rear block mod anyway?
While your back-there,Nic, you might want to plumb for pressure gage take-off and something like a Moroso 1.5 qt., 1 pc. oil reservoir,(poor- boy accusump).(1) at the front of oiling system , even better,= 3qts of additional oil in system with-out windage or pan clearance issues. Better to take pressure reading near the end of the trail. Trick is to install solenoid valve on resevoir, to facilitate "cold start prelube" = longer lasting engine. roverman.
I like the idea. You're saying put a little solenoid pump and pump what's accumulated in the remote reservoir back into the lifter galleries just before start up, right?
Nic - I'm heading out shortly. If nobody post a pic, I'll pull the 4 loose bolts holding my intake - no valley gasket in place.
Nic and folks, Imagine a 1.5 qt. aluminum bottle, mounted vertically to max of 20 deg. tilt, filled with atmosphereic pressure(air). You start the engine and it fills the container with pressurized oil. In the event of pressure loss,cavitation?, the pressurized oil feeds automatically to maintain pressure untill its empty or pressure comes up. Solenoid control valve gives the option of when flow takes place. Maybe "peep" Moroso, pn.23930 ? roverman.
edit..
Let me know if you want more pics.
DSCN0710.JPG
That works just fine. So, Jim, at the top of the pic, that little boss with the two holes in it is the gallery crossover?
Sure Nuff. Odd that they abandoned that construction on the iron motors, don't you think?
Jim
Quote(Art wrote)
While your back-there,Nic, you might want to plumb for pressure gage take-off and something like a Moroso 1.5 qt., 1 pc. oil reservoir,(poor- boy accusump).(1) at the front of oiling system , even better,= 3qts of additional oil in system with-out windage or pan clearance issues. Better to take pressure reading near the end of the trail. Trick is to install solenoid valve on resevoir, to facilitate "cold start prelube" = longer lasting engine. roverman.
(Nic wrote)
I like the idea. You're saying put a little solenoid pump and pump what's accumulated in the remote reservoir back into the lifter galleries just before start up, right?
(Art wrote)
Nic and folks, Imagine a 1.5 qt. aluminum bottle, mounted vertically to max of 20 deg. tilt, filled with atmosphereic pressure(air). You start the engine and it fills the container with pressurized oil. In the event of pressure loss,cavitation?, the pressurized oil feeds automatically to maintain pressure untill its empty or pressure comes up. Solenoid control valve gives the option of when flow takes place. Maybe "peep" Moroso, pn.23930 ? roverman.
There are lots of photos of Accusump oil accumulators in our new photo gallery section..
Here's one example:
(The solenoid valve is under the green plastic cover. A pressure gauge is at the far end.)
(http://www.britishracecar.com/VicSchuster-Turner-MkIII/VicSchuster-Turner-MkIII-BD.jpg)
I like the idea of giving the bearings a pressurized shot shot of oil before starting the engine, but I'm still a little foggy on details of how the system works. I'd like to see detailed schematics of how to plumb Accusumps, with all the variables (e.g. dry sump systems.)
Q1: If you've got five quarts of oil in the oilpan, and you release a three quart Accusump, doesn't that mean you'll have almost eight quarts of oil in the oilpan until you build up pressure again? (I wonder if maybe a smaller Accusump might actually be better.)
Q2: Should there be an oil filter between Accusump and engine? To me, it looks like an Accusump would seriously complicate cleaning out an engine following a bearing failure. Are the tanks designed to be taken apart and cleaned?
Good questions, Curtis. I hadn't even considered the clean out issue. Although the container would be taking oil off filter side if I take it off the back of the block from the lifter galleries. Maybe it wouldn't get pieces in it that way??
The point about extra oil in the system is a good one...
Curtis and all, Regarding Q1, I would want the gage visable from where I'm normally starting the engine. Further, I would want perhaps, a temporary,(impulse-on) switch for "short" pre-lube cycle, no need to flood the sump, and a normal-on switch for engine running. The Accusumps with a "floating piston", I'm familiar with, have a snap-ring, usefull for disassembly, cleaning/inspection of debris. Regarding Q2, 3 quarts should be fine when using impulse lube,(watching pressure gage), during cold start-up. The 1 piece,(bottle) accumulator such as Moroso # 23930, is just that, a "bottle",1.5 qts and cheep. In case of engine failure, one would, drain the bottle, if not already empty, and observe the contents. It's at the end of the oiling system so least likey to get contaminated. 100% flush clean or throw-away. Dry sump systems need none of this stuff by their de$ign. roverman.
Do they just use an electric pump then? I suppose I could just add a momentary switch on the dash to hit just before startup.
Nic, think of it as a "Bank" for extra oil savings. The oil pump in the engine supplies the pressurized oil to the resovoir,(accumulator). Loss of oil pressure, with or with-out solenoid control valve allows pressurized oil,"saved" in accumulator to re-enter oil feed galleys to maintain pressure. Quite basic compared to dry-sump, but effective. roverman.
OH I get it. SO the reservoir stays pressurized. That sort of re-pressurizes the system just before startup, right? That makes sense. So you're saying just use some type of servo valve with that opens with the "run" switch for the motor. Cool!
We always just put a ball valve on the bottle and opened it up just before hitting the start switch, shut it just before shutting down the engine. But solenoids are cool too..
Jim
For a street car I'd recommend a solenoid vavle that would be open when the ingition switch was on. You turn on the key and get a shot of oil into the engine just as you start to crank it. While it's running it refills the acumulator and that's there in case you get the pick up uncovered during a high g maneuver then just give it a bit of a rev when shutting down to get the pressure up to max and turn off the key holding the oil in the tank until the next start cycle. Nothing to worry about or valves to remember. The only downside is when you change the oil, then you'll have to drain the accumulator and do a "dry" start when you first crank the engine and then top off the oil level once the accumulator is filled.
Ok, let's say your the meticulos type, your 1.5 qt. bottle has a quick latch system and valve is mounted on the bottle. Oil change time you drain bottle,refill,close valve and pressurize,(air valve is included on top). Now your ready to pre-lube, cold start.roverman.
Hey all, after reading this and the Lotus Headed Rover thread, I gots to thinking a little.
In the schematic that ex-tyke posted you can see how (from the front of the engine) that only the left side lifter gallery feeds the main bearings, and the plugs in the front of the block are (I think) where the oil feeds are drilled from (and have to be plugged) and its done that way to allow oil flow around the cam to the right side lifter gallery and up into the rocker shafts. Its a pity they dont show the start of the left hand head feed, but you can always guess.
As you can see, the lifter galleries just stop at the back of the block and I too think that a joiner here would only be a good thing. I would also be interested to hear if anyone thinks it would be possible to drill and tap some fittings to join these inside the valley, then take a gauge feed off of there?
Or, could you plumb a feed INTO both of these for a drysump setup, avoiding the front of the engine totaly?
Hack
Hack and clan, notice the two, very handy, pipe plugs that just happen to cover "both" galleys in the back? I think there's room to clear the flywheel. How could it get any simpler? roverman.
Hey Art,
Nics original post =
I measured the gap between the block and the flywheel. There is 1 1/2" to work with. Should be more than enough. SWEET!
So Ive been looking at a few photos after reading and it looks very, very tight... So, thats sorta why I was wondering about internal fittings.
Hack
I initially thought it was tight too, until I measured it. I think there is enough room to put a couple 90ยบ bends in the pipe threads.
I've seen , brass pipe, "loose 90 deg." fittings, with a 45 deg. at appex of both pipe threads. Every 90 deg. can reduce pressure up-to 10 psi. A pipe plug with a tube flare fitting on opposite end, coming straight out of galley and theaded into an "oil log", between both galleys, might work. roverman.
But it wouldn't be the ONLY way across. You know what I'm sayin'? I'd have the crossover in the front and the back of the galleries.
I suppose it would mess with the accumulator though.
I think it's over the top and I don't see any sense in it. On the BOPR all the mains are fed from the left side so all you're doing is adding a redundant passage to the other side which only feeds that side's valve train. The passages in the front should be plenty, and unless someone can point to an oiling related failure of the far side valve train I just don't think it makes any sense at all. Maybe if you want to tie in for an accumulator or a pressure gage the near side fitting would work, but otherwise, I can't see it and I'm a little sorry I even brought the subject up.
Jim
OK OK. Just relax man. It never hurts to flesh out a concept. Is they front bypass the same on the early blocks?
Jim, Nic and clan, true it may be a little over the top but as you pointed-out Jim it will be a handy place to plumb a gage/accumulator. This over-the-top will be "much" easier than that other,(ott) the Ford into Rover, cranky issue.Happy Holidays to all. roverman.
the old way of equalizing pressure and flow to the lifters on the iron blocks was to groove the cam bearing journal in the front of the block
Thanks to Wotland for the link in the 4.02 Inch Bore thread...
Picture and text from
www.espritv8.net
QuoteHoles in block for back end oiling, Oil was also fed into the rear end of the oil galleries behind the flywheel to avoid oil starvation of the aft crank pins. These two holes had to be made for the pipes to pass through.
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8739/espritv8017012.jpg)
Hack
Just to explore this idea a little further, let's say the holes in the block feeding the mains are 1/4" diameter. That should be correct but feel free to verify it. We have 5 such holes feeding the 5 main bearings. The flow rate of a round pipe, or passage in this case, quadruples each time we double the diameter so it stands to reason that for full flow through all five main bearing feeds the oil galley from the pump should be just a bit over 1/2" diameter. It is not. In fact it could be a bit under 1/2" and this is where the external feed idea is born. But the matter doesn't end there as we have restrictions at various points. Most importantly, the hole in the bearing shell is probably closer to 3/16" to start with, and the area that is available for the oil to flow out into the bearing is much smaller than that. In fact it is at this point that we first encounter the principles of good oil management in the BOPR/SBB block. It is common to allow about .002" of bearing clearance for the mains of production V8 engines of almost all types but experience has shown that doing so in any of the Buick engines is courting disaster. These engines were designed for bearing clearances of around .001" and even less (check the Buick factory specifications for confirmation) and there was nothing done in the Rover variant to give us reason to think these clearances should be opened up. Also there is no justification for larger clearances in the aluminum motors over those of the iron block motors. Our brothers in the drag racing fraternity uniformly stress the necessity of keeping these clearances to the low side, a practice that is in direct opposition to common wisdom in engine building. As far as it applies to these engines, common wisdom is completely and unequivocally wrong.
Using the proper bearing clearances then, the bearing itself is the restriction in the oil feed system and the rest of the system is sized to allow more than adequate flow behind that restriction as long as those clearances are kept in check. What we have found in every case where adequate oil flow was a problem is that either bearing clearances were excessive, or oil has been allowed to escape at some other point in the system such as by poor fit in the lifter bores (a common problem) excessive clearances in the cam bearings, (bad installation, damaged bearings, etc.) or excessive leakage at the rocker shafts. These engines were designed and engineered to run with tight oil clearances. Pay proper attention to those clearances. Enlarge the feed to the oil pump to 5/8", set up the pump with minimum end play, eliminate leakage and your oil feed and oil pressure will not give you trouble. Done properly, band-aids are not needed even with a high rpm engine. Overlook any one area and your band-aid won't help either.
An externally adjustable pressure relief is often recommended and is a good idea to limit oil pressure during cold start-up and possible rupture of oil filters. (We've seen this happen) The pressure relief does not boost low RPM oil pressure in any way. Porting of the oil pump passages and chamfering of oil passage transitions and corners are worthy and recommended performance modifications. End clearance of oil pump gears is recommended to be about .001-.0015". In practice, shimming the cover until the gears just stop dragging seems to work well. A worn cover should be replaced of course, and a so called "booster plate" provides a new wear surface for the gears and stabilizes the pump cavity. It also can be smoothed or ported to enhance flow. Cam bearings can be a problem as the bore size in the block can vary significantly, often resulting in undersized bores, difficult cam installation, and poor practices such as bearing scraping which lead to loss of oil control. Make sure the bores are correct during the machining phase. Pressurize the oil system before installing the intake and valve covers and any serious leakage points in the upper end will be revealed. Do this before the pan is installed for a complete check. It may be messy but that is a much more temporary problem than spun bearings.
As far as adding external lines, that was tried and discarded decades ago in the drag racing sport. It adds multiple extra failure points and provides no benefit if the engine has been properly built in the first place.
Jim
one thing that has not been mentioned as far as I have seen, is the added benefit of the pressurised accumulator is it acts as a dry sump if the suction pipe in the wet sump is ever uncovered when using the car in anger
A large/qualified, engined rebuilder states, "1lb. of oil pressure per 1 square inch of (sleeve bearing), surface per. 1,000 rpm., is adequate." When you, "do the math", will better explain. Oil pressure loss/throw-off, from sleeve bearings increases to the square of bearing clearance increase, ie., .001"=40 psi, then .002"=10 psi. Another way of excess loss,is with too much con-rod side clearance,which also puts too much oil on the cylinder walls,(flooding the rings), and increases windage. Some engines, like 390+, AMC V8's, need a lifter galley cross-over line to prevent "main" problems for serious use. We think nothing of adding external lines for remote mount filters/coolers. I feel the quality of the installation determines suitability. Given a choice, I would use the crank driven pump on the Rover.
Well written. Thanks Jim and Team.
The late Rover pump (concentric) may be able to provide more volume and pressure, but so far I have not seen any valid test data to verify that. The oil passages to and from the pump itself are more contorted than the ones on the Buick design which would seem to indicate more restriction so as far as I am concerned the jury is still out.
Jim
Someone on the web adapted the Buick 3.3 V6 front cover and gerotor pump to the 350. Had to modify crank snout and damper.
I heard something about that. Might find details on BuickV8.
Jim
Jim(s), Buick 3.3L? Kragen only shows 3.1 and 3.8L. Melling # M134 ? Years and Model? Thanks, roverman.
3300 not 3.3. 3800 series 1 should be same but, 3300 oil filter is angled better. I think you use the bottom half of the cover welded to the top half stock one. I will try to find the article and link to it. Found it! http://www.secondhandsix.com/ttype/cover.htm
Now, that looks interesting!
Here is another link, more in detail.Read the entire article:http://www.turbomalibu.com/oilpump.htm
If only I could weld aluminum!
Mr. Blackwoods complaint on the Rover, crank driven set-up was, passages appeared, "more contorted", than the the stock Buick, cam driven set-up. My question is, can the Rover be ported to alleviate contortions with-out welding, thus overall-easier ? Does the crank driven Buick set-up not have this problem ? I think I need to, "distance" myself from either pump and go, "external", as in sbm., jus pic'd-up a really "Cool Top Fuel ", twin mag off-set drive, at the "swop" t-day...sorry Ian. I'm thinkin to use it, maybe a "crab cap" dizzy, in the other port? Thanks, roverman.
Haven't looked at them in person but I think the Buick setup has better passages, looking at photos. My question is, after going that far why not use a remote electric water pump as well? Could shorten the engine significantly that way.
Anyone have a photo of the unmodified late V6 gerotor cover?
Jim
I wonder if you could adapt the entire front cover and sepentine belt system. It does seem like a lot of work just to retain the stock water pump and pulleys. I do like the oil pump idea though. I would look at the 86-88 3.8 cover like in the second link because of distributor provision. Also look at 87-88 3.0 cover.The 3300 and early series 1 3800 had different pan mounting.Could probably work with a little drilling.
Jim(s) and clan. Plan is to use electric h2o pump, but probably like the sbc, "proform", perhaps feeding side core holes in block but reverse flow may prove better. I want to use the "off-set drive", as driven by crank, for shorter engine package(907/Rover) and to use a distributor isolated from possible future, VVT. The sbm. pump should be adequate as I anticipate less oil required than pushrod motor. The inlet system will be crucial to maximizing overall power for these heads, definatly I.R. and possible slide-plate injection. roverman.
Melling lists gerotor oil pump 86-94 the same. I couldn't find a picture of 86-88 3.8 (might bolt up and has distributor provision)but here is a comparison of series 1 3800 with 64-85 early style front cover.Jim, I did find 2 gasket pictures-that might help.
series13800.jpg
64-85.jpg
86-88.JPG
early.JPG
That's great. Wouldn't hurt if we had a shot of the Rover gearotor cover to look at too. The filter location looks good, the casting for the oil channels to the pump also look good. Personally I think a serp setup may be a good idea. Art, won't you be needing a lot of belts on that motor?
Jim
Im afraid this is the only pic I have of the front of my engine, I will try and get some better ones later, but my main computer Hard drive has died, and Im on my old laptop, which has no download programe running. Ill see what I can do.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/ianianstewart/PICT0564.jpg)
Found a better pic, shamelessly borrowed from another site,
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/ianianstewart/frontcover7.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/ianianstewart/BYwpEVgBGkKGrHgoOKj8EjlLmUE61BKjSWt.jpg)
There were a few years, late 3.9 and 4.2 Rover that had distributor provisions also.Nic, you might want to see this link of a 350 crank in 300.http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/MonsterMotor.htm
Pictures of the top old bottom new hybrid probably looks a lot like 86-88 FWD .You have to use gasket for 86-88 VIN 3 Lesabre.
gerotortimingcover2.jpg
gerotortimingcover1_small1.jpg
FWD_timing_gasket_small.jpg
I think this is an intermediate cover
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/ianianstewart/BKHo-WkKGrHgoOKj4EjlLmn4WBKqOmTnI9g.jpg)
Jim B. and clan, Hopefully just (1) HTD. for ea. bank,= (2) total, I hope. I want to use "tensioner" as aux. drive for oil pump/dizzy. Less clutter on the front/better. roverman.
I'm looking to do the same thing using a late (4.6) front cover at the bottom and a rover P5/6 top section in order to get the small water pump and a distributor along with the georotor oil pump. I cant use the serpentine interim front cover, there is'nt enough room between the radiator as well as the front anti roll bar and I have no wish to modify the bodywork on a factory V8 car making it non standard! So it seems that the best way forward is to combine the features I require by making my own. The links in this piece no longer work so I am at a loss to see what is there, can anyone help by posting new ones one pointing me in the direction of the thread involved, maybe on another site?
You could use of these fronts
IMG_2994.JPG
Made by John Eales (UK)