Years ago I figured out that they were using 62-80 Vette rear shocks in the conversion kits.
The old Gabrieal adjustables that have been using worked well for years. Unfortunately one of them is clunking now, so its time to change them out.
Using the same logic I thought I could just buy a set of Monroe sensa-tracs for a 62-80 vette and be good to go.
I tried them, but damn those thing are STIFF. Had to take them off after just one drive.
My question is does anyone have a Monroe part# for the current MGB rear tube kits? They may be using something else by now. I'd buy a kit, however I just want to make sure I wouldn't be getting something that I have already tried!
Bill
Bill,
I've been using the Monroe Sensa-Trac #5877 ST for four years or so. They were a little bit bouncy when brand new. I like 'em just fine now.
Carl
I'm also using those.
Incidentally, 5877-ST is listed for the '84-'88 Dodge Colt.
Cool, thanks guys! I give them a try.
Bill
Two thumbs up for the 5877 ST Sensa-tracs. My old shocks were old school (non-gas) and must have been worn. The car rides better AND handles better!
Bill
Ok, You guys have my interest.
Is there a conversion kit available?
Is it advisable to convert the rears and leave the fronts stock?
Bruce
Bruce, maybe I should back-up and say that I'm actually NOT a fan of the el-cheapo conversion kit that I installed twenty years ago. The Dodge Colt shocks are night-and-day better than the Chevy Van (front) shocks that originally came with that kit, but in my opinion they're still not particularly good. I think properly rebuilt knee-action shocks would almost certainly be superior. Unfortunately, I discarded the leaky, old knee-action shocks that were on my car when I dragged it home.
You can find two different shock absorber conversion kits in the current Moss Motors catalog on page "A45".
The kit I bought twenty-one years ago looked exactly like the "Moss Rear Shock Kit", part number 268-126. The shock displayed in Moss's photo is clearly decaled "Sensatrac". Back then, the kit was a whole lot cheaper. Now it's listed at $238. You can buy Sensatrac shocks locally for less than $20 each, so apparently Moss thinks their brackets are worth $200.
Sometime in the last twenty-one years, almost certainly when I swapped to the Dodge Colt shocks, I realized that the Moss brackets don't add any value at all. You can install the exact same shock absorber simply by putting a long 7/16" bolt clear through the forward mounting holes on the frame!
At the bottom end of the shock absorber, as I recall, Moss provided Grade-5 7/16" bolts and nylon lock nuts to mate to the same brackets as the knee-action shocks used to connect to. (The brackets are shown on page number 50, part numbers 267-595 and 267-605.) As I recall, the trick with these brackets is to swap them right-for-left so that the shocks operate within their proper working length. Anyhow... I threw out the junky hardware Moss provided. Instead, I used Grade 8 bolts and I welded the bolts to the brackets.
I love Moss... but there are some parts I honestly believe they'd be wiser NOT to put their name on.
There's no particular need to do front and rear at the same time...
I bought my kit that came with the Monroe shocks from Jack Emery for way less than a $100. The mounting bracket used the lever shock holes & bolts. The bolt for the Monroe shock was somewhere in between. I swapped & flipped the bottom shock brackets. Handling-wise I have no complaints. Kept the front lever shocks 'cause they work just fine. For a street MG, my car does pretty good in the corners.
My car had the rear tube shock conversion when I got it. I took them off and threw them away. Put lever arm shocks on with the competition valves and ran 5-10 wt fork oil in them, switching later to atf. That was a real good setup too, works great in the mountains.
Jim
Thanks guys
It looks like I have a nice easy project for the winter. I can make those plates. It will give me a chance to practice my welding.
Thanks Bruce
Hey Bruce,
Lowering my '75 was last winter's project. After lowering the car about an 11/2" (bottom of rear seam is approx. 7'3/8"), I did away with the moss brackets and the REAL stiff Monroe (and these were for a late 80's dodge colt) shocks as they were bottoming out. I ended up with Gabriel Guardians (supposedly not as stiff as the sensatracs and they're less than $30 a pair!) 81464 (also for a late 80's colt) and using the forward bolt hole for the top mount so they wouldn't bottom out. I looked at PAGES of shocks and these were the only ones with enough travel (15.63-10.37). If you want "custom" shocks, Mark @ Shock Finders (800.344.1966 - Monroe referred me to him) can adjust the dampening and even change the mounts - I think he charges a reasonable $55 per shock.
QuoteAfter lowering the car about an 11/2" (bottom of rear seam is approx. 7'3/8")
Hi Tony. Where did you measure that exactly?
The Monroe's are a little bit more here in Canada at 52cdn each. That is 60 bucks more than you guys in the states are paying. I wonder what it will cost to have them shipped up from the states.
Will check into it and let you know for curiosity sake.
Carl - I took measurements at the bottom of the rocker flange (shouldn't have written seam) - about 5/8" height difference between front and rear flange . Mods were made per Dave Headley's Grip Tech article, but taking into account that this is a street car.
1) Cut front springs - from 10" to 9"
2) Removed 3rd spring from top and restacked the rest on top
3) Headley's axle locator kit ilo panhard rod
4) changed to red poly bushings
5) 5/8 to 3/4 sway bar
6) "uprated" rebuilt lever shocks - blew out one of them autocrossing for the 1st time in Wisconsin
* Just enough room to jam the jack under the support.
I really like the "softer" rear end - no more pogo stick (those damn old Monroe shocks). Went out on a Sunday a couple of weeks ago and flogged the car (I was hanging onto the outside door panel) in a parking lot behind an industrial building to check on any tire rubbing issues - inner fender flanges barely kissed those 205/60/14 tires - some fender rolling will take care of that. Looking forward to playing with the tire pressures next time!
I lowered my car a few years ago (74.5RB) by installing CB front springs and having the rear springs re-arched by a local spring shop.
My measurements to the bottom of the rocker flange is 7 1/2 front and 8" rear.
Bruce
1) Since I'm cheap, I went with the work-with-what-have approach - I can always decide to add the uprated front springs, lowering blocks, etc. to the old christmas list.
2) My car is now about 7" rear and 6'1/4" front (the measurements should allow one to get a jack under the rocker support) on passenger side - the driver side has settled about a 1/2" lower - so, I'll need to remove a couple of 1/4" plates (these are cheap to make or have made) - I like using the plates better than a lowering block as it allows you to make smaller adjustments, especially as you get closer to your target height and from side to side if necessary.
3) REMINDER - while you have your leaf springs off the car - DO NOT forget to swap them from side to side, as your passenger side is probably higher than the driver side - I forgot!
4) Curtis - a bunch of us ought to bug (I'll start) Dave Headley about doing a "grip" tech session in Indianapolis - his name and suspension parts keep popping up in those race car articles you're doing.
Ok, this was my first project with the car as it seemed straightforward enough. The job itself wasn't involved. In fact, it may be one of the easiest things I ever do to the car. The major tidbit that I might throw in is the need to have 7/16 bolts that are 6 inches long on hand for the upper mount on the tube shocks. You will also want to be sure to have a lot of washers on hand so that you can try to get the geometry at least close to correct. Trying to find a grade 8, coarse thread, 6 inch, 7/16 bolt on a Sunday just doesn't pan out. I wouldn't be comfortable pushing the car around a track with that many washers spacing it out but I'm comfortable with it for now thanks to the split washers and the fact that its just going to see normal use for the time being. Plus this is just a temporary suspension setup compared to my eventual plans. I highly recommend it though, great improvement.
Let's discuss tube shocks. Not interested in hearing about Armstrong lever shocks. This isn't the MGB Purists Forum. :)
I have been running the Monroe ST5877 (some use #5896) for years. Bit bouncy when new. Here's a spec sheet for Monroes.
http://www.monroe.com/assets/downloads/english/MonroeMountingLengthSpecifications.pdf
I am interested in a bolt-in replacement that is adjustable & works in a lowered MG aplication. GAZ, maybe? anyone have suggestions & parts numbers?
Carl,
I've been using VW Beetle shocks for years on the rear. You have to ream out the mounting sleeves to 1/2". They are 7/16". Should be a lot of options for that app. Mine are KYB non-adjustable. Mike
I've had VW shocks on the rear for years too, and wouldn't take for them.
Paul
Carl, Koni, Gaz and Spax have adjustable shocks. At a high price though. Gabriel used to make an adjustable shock also, with 3 settings, soft, firm and extra firm. I've heard of the VW rear shocks before. There is an adjustable coil over versions of those and if you remove the shorter leaf springs and use the top two only, may work. Kind of like Gary's coilover with cheaper shocks. I would just use the front shock bolt instead of top bracket. VW rear coilover pic:
KGrHqRqwFIyR1WSZwBSOhbRZOg60_57.jpg
Another alternative, not cheap either but looks cool. QA1 adjustable front shock for 68-69 Camaro ($155 each) and top eye conversion($22 each). Same travel of 5" and adjustable and rebuildable. About an inch shorter, so use the rear shock mount hole. You would have to remove the bar pin in lower mount.
7211915_L.jpg
hal-ss300lt_w.jpg
Though not adjustable 84-88 Dodge Colt shocks are commonly used in front and rear conversions. Here is a link to Koni adjustable for VW Beetle that would work also.
http://www.andysautosport.com/volkswagen/1950_1979_beetle/suspension/struts_and_shocks/koni/koni09090400.html
http://www.koni-na.com/adjustment.cfm
I've just combined two threads into one... maybe that will help someone research this topic in the future. And I have a small addition to make:
Today I replaced a worn out pair of Monroe Sensa-Trac (5877ST) shock absorbers with a new pair of Gabriel Guardians (81464). Both of these are listed for the old Dodge Colt subcompact. Here are a few notes:
The new Gabriel shock absorbers cost ~$21/each at my local discount auto parts store. They're dimensionally similar to the Monroes. Fully extended the Gabriels are about 1/8" shorter and fully compressed they're about 1/8" longer. I suppose that might even come down to manufacturing variance. I think both the Monroes and the Gabriels are nitrogen gas charged. The Gabriels are marked "Made in Mexico".
Of course it's not really fair to compare new shock absorbers against old and worn out shocks. The improvement in ride quality was tremendous, as expected. Subsequently, the ride is also much quieter I didn't keep a record of when I installed the Monroes. My best guess is that it was about 20,000 miles ago. . However... my perception is that the Gabriels may be a little bit "softer" than the Monroes were when THEY were new.
It's so rewarding when something so cheap, simple, and quick yields such big results. Why did I put up with dead shock absorbers for so long!?!
Thanks Curtis
I've been running the Monroe's and they work pretty good, however as Carl mentioned I don't have a lot of miles on them yet, but they can seem a little firm at times.
It's a long drive to Colorado, so I may try a set of the Gabriels for the long all day drives that lay ahead.
Bill
On June 12 I posted about replacing Monroe Sensa-Trac (5877ST) shock absorbers with Gabriel Guardians (81464). To follow-up...
I have about 8000 miles on the Gabriel Guardians now. Although I still believe the dampening characteristics of the Gabriels are better, they have NOT been trouble free. The distance tubes at the top end of both Gabriel shock absorbers have crushed severely. (I think they used garbage-grade steel.) Since I installed the shocks with safety washers and elliptically offset nuts, there was no danger of things coming apart. However, the crushed tubes resulted in loose mounting, and subsequent banging noises and harshness. (You can tighten them up temporarily while on a road trip, but they continue distorting and coming loose as you drive further.)
GabrielGuardian-CrushedDistanceTube1.jpg
GabrielGuardian-CrushedDistanceTube2.jpg
The previous Monroe shocks appeared similarly constructed, but their distance tubes were definitely more robust. I've extracted one successfully, and transferred it into a Gabriel bushing:
GabrielGuardian-MonroeDistanceTube.jpg
Unfortunately, I destroyed the other Monroe distance tube during extraction so I'll have to come up with another plan for the other side shock absorber.
Hmm, you still bottoming out, Curtis? Do you think the Gabriels are any stiffer than the Monroes?
I really need a slightly, (a bit more than slightly) stiffer rear shock. Maybe the Corvette shocks that Bill didn't like. Or, maybe the GAZ adjustables. Yeah, that's the ticket! ;)
Anyone have any GAZ info? I just tried the standard GAZ kit over at Jim Watson's/ The GAZ shock is too long for my lowered MGB. The shock measured 12" fully compressed. My Monroe at ride height is right at 12.5". Need a shorter GAZ.
Carl, KYB, Bilstein, and QA1 for 63-82 Corvette rear are more reasonably priced than Gaz. Might be a toss up if you want adjustable.
http://www.qa1.net/suspension/street-performance-racing-shocks-struts-and-pro-coil-systems/stocker-star-non-coil-over-shocks/403-aluminum-stocker-star-shock
I would really like to be able to reach under the car & turn the knob at track days & autox.
The GAZ part #s are GT5-2222 for CB & GT5-2223 for RB. Can't seem to find the specs anywhere.
Gaz has adjustable for lowered VW beetle that would be about right for your ride height. 255mm(aprx. 10") to 356 mm(aprx. 14")
http://www.coolairvw.co.uk/Item/Shop_by_Product~Suspension_-P-_Steering_Products~Shock_Absorbers~GAZ_Shock_Absorbers/AC413Z/Eye_Top_-P-_Eye_Bottom_GAZ_Shocks.html
Thanks, Jim. I'll check it out.
GAZ shock specs seem to be Top Secret.
Carl,
I worked with GAZ via email when I purchased different upper mounts for the front shocks I bought from Moss Europe. The were very responsive. Bet they would be happy to answer your questions.
I sent them an email earlier today, so we will see. Cannot believe in this internet era there is nothing out there. Driving me crazy.
I had a set of these on the shelf from another project and they were the right length, so I bolted them on by putting a sheet metal sleeve inside the top mount and simply using a 7/16" bolt on top.
No idea of the brand, but they have been working well. Ordered a second set for my son's roadster. Also seem to work well. Decent ride, good damping.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Short-Gas-Filled-Shocks-Plain,2183.html
McMaster Carr has a wide variety of tubing that can be used to make shock bushings in steel, stainless steel and aluminum.
GAZ shocks were included with the Hoyle suspension kit I am using. I found these shocks to be poor. The single adjustment made both the compression and rebound stiffer so when rebound was in control compression was far too stiff. Then the bushings around the piston shafts wore out (about 30,000 miles). I replaced them with QA-1 single adjustable shocks (rebound only) and this was a huge improvement.
Here's a nice rear shock for Carl!
http://www.qa1.net/suspension/street-performance-racing-shocks-struts-and-pro-coil-systems/stocker-star-non-coil-over-shocks/403-aluminum-stocker-star-shock