LS4

[mgb260]

The LS4 is the poor stepchild of the LS series. Used in FWD cars with transmission mounted starter. Small GM V6 bellhousing pattern. Lots available at decent prices. Only 300HP!  For the starter the Fiero guys machine the bellhousing and make a bracket. Since it only came with a automatic you would need a custom flywheel. My idea would use a block plate,Northstar starter,2.2 flywheel redrilled  and 2.2 belhousing. Would look similar to 215/Rover setup. Most guys do away with the DOD (Displacement on demand) lifters. They have broken and caused oil usage issues. There is some misinformation that the hi-volume oil pump will suck the pan dry. You can improve oil drain back and use the 40lb relief spring. It is a popular upgrade for the LS racers. You can convert the front cover to the better RWD setup or there is a spacer kit to use the Big Block Chevy electric water pump. All the same aftermarket stuff will work with this motor. If you use the LS2 intake,LS3 headers,LS6 cam, lifters and valve springs for an easy 400HP. Here are some pictures of aftermarket oil pan,front pulleys and a good looking motor without the ugly coils on the valve covers.





(one image deleted by moderator because it had a watermark...)

[kerbau53]

That is one good looking piece of kit.

[mgbreis]

Any chance a dodge dakota bell housing with a toyota w58 trans would work? Didn't know if the dakota bell housing had provision for a starter.

[mgb260]

Ryan,It may work as far as bolting up between motor and trans but, the LS4 has no starter provision. GM chose to mount it on the transverse FWD auto instead to make room. The Dakota has the same starter location as the small V6 and will have interference with the block, the 2.2 is lower, plus is commonly used to convert the FWD V6 to RWD. The reason I chose it also is the flywheel diameter and 142 tooth is the same between the LS4,2.2 and Northstar starter. If you notch the bellhousing like the Fiero guys and mount up a bracket for the LS4 starter it would work. You would have to box an area above the gas pedal for starter clearance. I have some pictures of the Fiero setup and Northstar starter for my idea.

[mgb260]

Chevy S10 2.2 bellhousing picture:

[mgb260]

Ryan, The Dakota bellhousing has the larger Toyota transmission pattern for the AX15 same as R154,Colorado/Canyon/Solstice/Skye. You would want the Jeep Wrangler AX5 pattern(small Toyota) for your W58.

[roverman]

Rear mount starter = reverse rotation-yes ?  roverman.

[mgbreis]

Good point, I get confused! You'd probably want the R154 behind the ls4 anyway! Other than the weight difference, the 5.3 truck engine is probably a lot easier to use than the ls4, huh?

[mgb260]

Art, the LS4 starter would be reverse rotation compared to Northstar starter. Ryan, I'm trying to make a affordable solution for the LS4 beause they are plentiful and much cheaper than the performance aluminum LSX motors. The iron truck motor advantage is only the block mounted starter. You would still have to change intake and front cover over to car items,plus the added weight and larger bellhousing.The LS4 uses the LS6 heads with 4.8 flatop pistons for 10.0 to 1 compression. Much better than the truck motor. You can mill the heads .030 to up the compression to 10.5. The restrictive stock intake actually detunes the LS4. Here is a picture comparing with the LS2 intake and Throttle body. There were some Trailblazer aluminum 5.3's but somewhat rare and pricey also. I think the W58 would be fine with a stock 300HP LS4. I kind of like the Colorado/Solstice(large Toyota pattern) tranny but the shifter either is too far forward or too far back. There is a webpage where they mount the R154 shifter inbetween.The bellhousing mount doesn't look that difficult to me.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Jim, is it not possible to put the starter down on the passenger's side in the conventional location for some reason? Seems to me, being aluminum, that you could heliarc a couple bosses in place, maybe holesaw a cutout?

Jim

[mgbreis]

Jim B. makes a good point, putting the starter up high on the driver's side is a bad location in an mgb, that's for sure.

[mgb260]

That's what I'm doing with the 2.2 bellhousing only on driver side. Any higher and there is a thick casting that would be in the way,i don't know if there is an internal passage or not. Might still need to be trimmed to clear starter nose. I have to PM Joe Schaefer on his 2.2 to get crank flange to motor belhousing flange as a spacer will be needed to put flywheel and clutch in right spot for tranny splines. Here is a picture of Joe's 2.2 mini starter to show how low it would be with the 2.2 bellhousing. Picture of rear of LS4 showing small bellhousing flywheel area.




(Moderator edited post to remove watermarked photo.)

[mgb260]

More info on rear mount starter,LS2 intake,coil mods and cooling vent mod.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1588653-88-fiero-formula-ls4-f40-6-speed-swap.html

[mgb260]

Better picture of Northstar starter:

[BlownMGB-V8]

I was referring to mounting the starter alongside the engine in the conventional way rather than on the transmission. On the driver's side I think the oil filter would be in the way. That photo above looks like maybe there is enough space, just need a mount. The S-10 bellhousing would fit this engine?  If so that just leaves the flywheel. I understand the easiest solution may be to cut down an LS-1 flywheel and mount the V6 ring gear.

Was the T56 ever mated to the small GM corporate bellhousing pattern? (I'm guessing no.)

Jim

[mgb260]

Jim,The picture is a little decieving, the oil filter actually fits up in a pocket in the pan. I would probably use a remote filter for more room.You could probably do the same thing on the other side with the larger S10 or Camaro bellhousing. You still would have to mount the starter below pan level. Way below those starter pockets. I guess you could Tig weld the pocket further down. I'm just trying to use the 2.2 stuff becaue it is a proven bolt in solution for the GM transverse engnes to convert to RWD. It just happens to have the lowest starter pocket but on the drivers side. The Northstar starter is a mini starter and would tuck in close like shown in the picture of Joe's 2.2. The motor plate with the hole for starter mount would look similar to the Buick 215/Rover setup. Probaby have a rear brace to oil pan. With my idea someone could unbolt their little V6 and directly bolt in the LS4. There are simple conversion mounts that use SBC insulators. Those would bolt to S10 V6 mounts. Here is a picture of the small tucked in starter idea on a 3400 V6:


(image deleted by moderator because it had a watermark...)

[mgb260]

If you look at the first picture with the blue bracket you will see a bump in the transaxle right above and behind the oil filter. That is where the 2.2/FWD starter nose goes. Notice the bracket and thick aluminum pad just to left. They need to go. Also I noticed the Northstar nosecone would have to be cut and Tigged after turned 180 degrees. Unless you use it on the otherside. I remember the 4.9 Cadillac with 2.2 bellhousing is notched out for nose cone.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I see. And the starter bump in the S-10 bell is on the driver's side. I just hate remote filter mounts, especially when it is tucked in so nicely in the OEM location. I have still to see a clear shot of the other side of the engine. I can't think of any obstruction that would be there. The Wrangler and Dakota bellhousings appear to have the starter pocket on that side, wouldn't a fairly simple plate bolted to the bellhousing provide a suitable starter mount? Or a plate heliarced to the bellhousing itself?

I am completely unfamiliar with the transmissions that could be used with those two bellhousings, what do they have to offer?

Jim

[mgb260]

Jim, Ryan brought those bellhousings up when he mentioned the Toyota W58 he wanted to use. Toyota/Aisan trannys had small and large pattern. The Celica/Supra W58 is small pattern,so is Jeep AX5. The Supra R154 is large pattern,so is Dodge AX15 and Colorado/Solstice. Those bellhousings have the small GM V6 block pattern because Jeep used that pattern with the GM 2.8V6 and their own 2.5 four. Then Chrysler bought Jeep and used the 2.5 four in the Dakota. That is why I like that pattern bellhousing. Also used in Isuzu V6,3800 GM V6 and Cadillac 4.5/4.9 V8. I will see if I can find another picture of the other side. I don't have a motor here, so am doing research for a few that have and are interested in a starter solution. By the way, I appreciate your insight/ideas,if we can figure this out it will open up a new source of excellent motors for the hobby.

[mgb260]

Jim B., Still looking for a better picture but, this Fiero build shows the passenger side heavy web where the starter would go with the RWD bellhousings.The 2.2 and 3800 are driver side and lower like the FWD bellhousings. RWD also use a larger 148 tooth flywheel in addition to a higher starter mount. Or you could just notch out the 2.2 bellhousing on other side like in the Caddy 4.9 photo.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Looks like enough of the ring gear is showing to engage a starter, and there may be some threaded bosses in that area that could be usable. It's on the same side as stock MG so no rewiring is needed and there should be clearance to the frame rails. It doesn't look to me like it would be any more difficult to mount a starter there than on the other side, it is the more conventional location of the two and avoids filter interference. I think I'd have to try that location to see if it could be made to work.

Of the transmissions mentioned, what do they have in terms of torque ratings and gear ratios? Are we talking exclusively about manual 5 speeds here, or are there other options?

Jim

[mgb260]

Jim, I got your gears turning! You already know about the Jeep/Isuzu AW4 automatic. The 5 speeds listed in order of strength: R154 Supra 1000HP twin Turbo,Colorado/Solstice 450HP,More in custom setups, shifter location fixed with R154 shifter mod, LS conversions.W58 about same as T5 300-400HPpopular in Australia with Dellow  conversions,AX15 probably same but low 1st gear,forward shifter(truck/Jeep),AX5 weakest and also truck/Jeep.

[mgb260]

The 2.2 was originally FWD transverse in the Cavalier. So when GM converted it to RWD for the S10 they kept the FWD starter location and crank flange location. That is why the 2.2 bellhousing works so good to convert 3100,3400,3500 FWD V6 to RWD. The LS4 crank flange was shortened 3mm to mount transverse. It may have been to make room rather than match the FWD setup. I am going to know soon whether its the same or a crank flange spacer will be required.

[mgb260]

Lots of 5.3 LS4 motors on Ebay and car-part.com for $800-$1200 average. Double and triple that for the Camaro/Corvette ones. You can find the truck iron ones and switch over to car intake and front cover. They have the different cams and heads also. The LS4 comes stock with the best LS6 heads. LS4 factory dyno chart:

[BlownMGB-V8]

So I take it, if Dan for instance were to go shopping for parts to put one of those in his TR7 he'd want to get a 2.5 Jeep Wrangler bellhousing, the W58... out of what Toyota? The LS4 out of a Pontiac or Chevy and then would have to sort out the starter and flywheel, does that sound about right?

And what vehicles were the R154 used in?

Jim