340 upgrade

[rficalora]

Posts like this are what have caused me to hesitate installing the Edelbrock SPFI system I have.  Most sensors are small and cheap enough to carry spares, but, while the ECU appears like an OEM unit from something, I've not found what ..  so if/when it fails, I'd be stranded.  It's just too easy to keep a carb'd car running.  OEM systems are good.  Not convinced any of the aftermarket one's are!

[MG four six eight]

I would not be afraid to try it Rob. What kills electronics more then anything is heat and poor ground connections, which can create excessive circuit board heat.
Just make sure that you mount the ECU where it's protected from excessive heat (under the dash or on the kick panel is good) and that your wiring is sound. Then you should have years of trouble free service!
Bill

[BlownMGB-V8]

Ordinarily I'd agree with Bill, but not when I've seen the number of failures I have and on different vehicles. Many people have been very fortunate with these. And you can't just put the failures down to bad connections or heat either. Bear in mind I'm a former USAF electronics technician among other things and I'd put the integrity of my installation up against anybody else's.

Despite that I've seen processor failures at irregular intervals going right back to the early days and no, the type of failure has not repeated, which is to say if they were caused externally the source was not the same. This and many other factors are the reasons why I referred to MS as "Amateur hour". Really they are, and at least until recently they would have told you that themselves. And I'm done relying on amateur designed and built electronics controllers for mission critical applications. Just done. All you have to do is take a close critical look at the controller used by a major manufacturer like GM to see a world of difference in design, construction and execution. By comparison the MS controller is, yes very much an amateur production. The evidence is clear in every aspect. The MS looks like something that was built for weekends on the drag strip, not to reliably run a vehicle for a quarter million miles or better. For instance, it's been nearly half a century since GM began using high reliability gas sealed connectors. What do we see on MS products? D-sub connectors used for computer interconnects. Not the thing you want in a hostile automotive environment. Now they've improved that on their top end products, but it should have been done that way to begin with, the technology was there, and I even told them at the time. And that's only scratching the surface.

No. When you can buy a proper controller that will more than do the job for $50 at any junkyard in the country today, why would any sensible person not take advantage of that?

Jim

[MGBV8]

I felt the same way, Rob, when I installed a PerTronix module in my distributor 15 years ago.  I knew if it failed, i would be stranded.  I have kept a set of points in the trunk ever since waiting for that day.  Still waiting.

Jim only has $50 in his GM 411 ECM, so having a know good, pre-programmed spare for trips is cheap peace of mind.  

[Jim Stabe]

I agree with using the GM controller. I don't have the LS one but the original for the 95 LT1 is working fine. It is programmable and has many more functions than I needed so I just eliminated those wires. Make sure you pay attention to all the grounds as I smoked the first unit because of a missed ground in the diagnostic port. As long as mine works I probably won't upgrade to the LS unit but if it does take a dump I'll change it out and run 8 coils.

[BlownMGB-V8]

I thought I'd take one more shot at adjusting the MS2. So I hooked it up on the bench and when I tried to access it, I got an error message saying the files didn't match and giving me a file name that looked very odd. So I tried every file I had for it on my tuning laptop to no avail. Last time this happened I had to reflash the processor so I set up to do that and the flash failed, which bricked the processor. So that's the end of the line. I could possibly install the MS3 processor but it turns out that is not straightforward at all and If I'm going through all that I may as well make it count for something and not have to just turn around later and do it all again. So I'll sell what's still good from the MS system and proceed with the GM 0411 install.

Currently I have the bench harness work partially done and have bits ordered to complete it. I have TunerPro RT installed on my tuning laptop, I have ordered the OBD2/USB adapter to work with PCM Hammer, which software I plan to download and install as soon as the harness is completed. After that I should be able to take a look under the hood. Wiring and mods to the 340 to make it work will progress as it warms up outside.

Since the 411 runs sequential and COP the changeover is going to be more than just splicing a few wires, but as always this presents an opportunity to make improvements also.

Jim

[IaTR6]

Aww, as a MSII user, I'm saddened to hear of the troubles Jim has had. I did use the
system partially due to cost, partially from the stories of tune ability, and I thought it a challenge (it has been).
I have had a series of issues unrelated to the MS that have prevented me from completing the tune to my
satisfaction, but the car runs well, and the final tuning is to set the VE table closer.
I will keep my eye on the GM conversion discussion, but won't make the change unless I have trouble.
Dennis

[BlownMGB-V8]

To be fair I've run MS since the earliest days of MS-1 and you would expect some failures of hobby type equipment over that span of just a bit shy of 2 decades. But we've seen 3 MS2 processor failures in the last 3 years between 2 vehicles with no rhyme or reason. Overall I've had 4 or 5 processor failures in the entire time I've been using it. Discounting the last 3, one or two failures over that period wouldn't be good but could be accepted. It's just gotten to be a bit much. Admittedly at about $120 each the processors aren't all that expensive but the costs do add up. More importantly than that though is that I no longer feel comfortable taking the car on a long trip. I've just been extremely lucky that the last two times I've been able to limp the car home. The last time I was 3 miles from home after a long trip, stopped then restarted the car, brought it up to freeway speed and it suddenly went pig rich. I don't know what the cause of the failures was but typically communication is lost with the tuning laptop, after which any attempt to reflash results in a locked up chip that won't even start the car. So if for example I'd made the mistake of trying to reflash at the Dayton meet instead of just biting the bullet and driving it home, (and I almost did) I'd have been stranded almost 100 miles away. Not good. That time the car was running normally, I just suddenly lost communication with the laptop. I've been lucky.

The OBD2/USB cable came in today, it looks to be properly made. I've checked my connectors against the pin-out chart and stripped one down for the bench harness (only the blue connector is needed for that). Only waiting on a digikey order and an OBD2 connector from ebay to put the bench harness together.

On the car side, I'm giving some serious thought to pulling a couple of engine harnesses so I have wires and pins of the correct colors. The degree wheel is here but I need to install it, modify the flag on the cam sensor, install the 4-wire IAC on the inlet scoop and order several sensors. Plus do some research on 2/3 bar MAP sensors used with the GM controller and a couple of other fairly minor issues. With any luck those will not raise problems. If so I'll just have to come up with a workaround. (Bias the MAP signal and tweak the VE table for instance.)

It shouldn't be too hard to get it done before too much of the driving season slips away.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

Finally it looks like it should be warmer for awhile. I've been plugging away at what I could do in the house. Established comm with the '411 and used TunerPro to go in and remove a bunch of items that won't be needed, mostly having to do with transmission, cats, DBW, and a few other things that don't apply to the typical V8 MGB. Basically just getting rid of the clutter. There remains a somewhat daunting number of tuning parameters and I didn't want to be confused by extra entries that don't do anything. Will that work? Can I just delete the flags and parameters that way? Not to mention tables and settings? Who knows. I'll find out when I go to start it up. If it doesn't I can revert to an earlier file before I removed all that.

I've been getting my documentation together too, found  pages that look to be out of a Helms shop manual for an '01 Camaro so that should be handy. And today I went out and found the pages from where I did my injector dead-time testing which should give me everything I need for those.

In TunerPro I was even able to go in and change the VIN# to the one from my MGB. There are 4 left over spaces at the end so I think I may put MGB and a space at the beginning, at least see if it will let me do that, then start putting in the injector info. I also want to see what one of the other '411s has for ignition settings and compare them since I'll be running the Silverado coil packs. (This OS and tune are for a Camaro)

I've been mentally preparing myself for the rewire job and think I'm just about ready. I don't know at this point how much of the MS harness I'll remove. Some but not all of it for sure. It's complicated by the fact that I still have the megashift harness in place. I hate to give up on the 8 speed but there's no way anybody will ever set that up to run with the '411 controller so I might as well give up on that and sell the parts. Good bit of money in that, if I can get 2/3 back I'll be doing extremely well. And, removing all those wires will help me add back some simplicity which the car badly needs at this point.

Jim

[Jim Stabe]

Do any of the new GM/Ford automatics (10 speed I believe and smaller package than the units they replace) have a standalone controller available for them? With the number of these units out there and both manufacturers offering a whole array of crate engines to the hot rod community somebody should be making a controller. Just a thought. Having some very deep lower gears and overdrive high gears should really make your car launch hard and give some great gas mileage.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Presumably, the 2014/2015 Caddy CTS-V used the Aisin AA80E. It may have had a controller that was separate from the PCM, or it may not. I'm still trying to get info about that. So there is a very faint glimmer of hope, but it wanes as time passes.

Jim

[Jim Stabe]

You might want to contact the guy at the bottom of this article
https://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/introducing-standalone-controllers-5-6-7-8-speed-transmissions/

[BlownMGB-V8]

Nothing there to indicate anything has been done with the Aisin. But I do have a couple feelers out. One guy on the ctsvowners forum tells me it was used in the cts sport, not the v, and presumably that was behind an LS but he hasn't confirmed it. I still have no info on what controller was used or at present, what year. Which is critical because they used several different transmissions so I need the exact application and preferably the part number.

IF (and it's still a pretty big if) it was used behind a V8 with a GM controller it's just barely possible that 1) it could be a separate module and, 2) it may be able to interface with an earlier GM ecu like the '411. Apparently they are at least tuning the Caddy ecm with HPTuners software so at least some possibilities may exist for use if it does turn out to be a unitary pcm but it's not a large community like Silverado owners so how refined that is would be anybody's guess. Since the owners of a car with the Aisin installed is a much smaller subset, again the odds diminish, but we'll see. I'll keep the hardware for awhile yet.

Then of course there's the question as to whether the same valve body was used. That may have to be changed out (assuming that is even possible) to match the caddy tcm.

In the meantime, I need to get the car back on the road. I need to buy wheels because the fronts are too big and have too much backspacing, new tires too, front and rear. I've decided to go with a 15" rim on the front which will mount a 245 wide tire, a little narrower than I'm used to but it should work fine. It will give me about a 3" smaller diameter which will really help out my front suspension and clearance issues. I'm considering a 7" or 7-1/2" wide wheel which is a bit narrower than their recommended range but it will still fit fine and will be a little lighter and the sidewall will do a better job of protecting the rim. I ran 265's on a 7" rim for many years and never had an issue:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Hankook&tireModel=Ventus+R-S4&partnum=44WR5Z232&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

This would give the car a California rake. Or, I could stay with the 17 size and use the Toyo Proxes R1R in a 245/35-17 but it's a 1" bigger tire and still requires the wheel purchase, I'm not getting around that. So I think the 15's are going to get the nod.

On the rear I guess I'll stay with the Sumitomo. The UTOG is a little lower, 160 instead of 200 so you'd think it might be a little stickier, but it isn't rated as high as the Hankook in the reviews so maybe not.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+Z&partnum=135ZR7HTRZ&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

Jim

[Scott Costanzo]

Established comm with the '411 and used TunerPro to go in and remove a bunch of items that won't be needed, mostly having to do with transmission, cats, DBW, and a few other things that don't apply to the typical V8 MGB. Basically just getting rid of the clutter. There remains a somewhat daunting number of tuning parameters and I didn't want to be confused by extra entries that don't do anything. Will that work? Can I just delete the flags and parameters that way? Not to mention tables and settings? Who knows. I'll find out when I go to start it up. If it doesn't I can revert to an earlier file before I removed all that.

I've been getting my documentation together too, found pages that look to be out of a Helms shop manual for an '01 Camaro so that should be handy. And today I went out and found the pages from where I did my injector dead-time testing which should give me everything I need for those.

In TunerPro I was even able to go in and change the VIN# to the one from my MGB. There are 4 left over spaces at the end so I think I may put MGB and a space at the beginning, at least see if it will let me do that, then start putting in the injector info. I also want to see what one of the other '411s has for ignition settings and compare them since I'll be running the Silverado coil packs. (This OS and tune are for a Camaro)

Jim are you referring to removing the XDF parameters or the actual data in the calibration? If it's the latter I wouldn't do that. Only the items needed for stand alone use are enabled in that bin. It is a manual bin as well so the auto stuff you see there is included in the factory calibration for a manual car. Also, you may want to be careful changing the VIN. I'm not 100% on this but I suspect there is a certain pattern that needs to be in that constant. I'd suggest keeping it as is until you've got the motor running and try changing it then if you feel you have to. Making changes like this before you get it running could introduce unknown changes to the calibration which doesn't help troubleshooting if you're having difficulties.

Check this link for wiring if you haven't already. http://lt1swap.com/2001_PCM_CONN_PINOUT.htm

The diagrams show you what pins you need an those that don't matter. I used the diagrams on this site with success.

I'm anxious to see your progress on this!

Scott

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Scott, I much appreciate the advice. This is a once-through on the tune, after I have what I want I'll go create a duplicate without all the deletions and then when run time comes around I'll try both just to see what it does. Chances are good it's just as you suspect and the file with the deletions either won't run or runs very poorly, but I will learn a few things by trying it. At the very least I'll become more familiar with the tuning parameters that matter the most. I really don't expect the trimmed down one to work and I probably won't try it first. Most likely I will load them each in different controllers so I can just switch over the plugs when the time comes to try it. I'm just curious if they allowed for trimming the chaff out of the tuning interface and if so, how deeply that goes. Does lack of a parameter default to a zero? In many cases if it does that'd work just fine. For others it probably won't.

I followed your suggestions and printed out what look to me like some very good documents on the wiring for the 2001 Camaro. That's what I'll use unless you see any reason not to, as I think it matches the pinout you linked to but I will be double checking as I go. They came off the same site but are more detailed. The fact that it works with your car is very important to me.

I expect to start splicing wires this week but have mechanical bits to make so that takes time too. Mounting block for the GM 4 wire IAC, mount the trigger ring and pickup, and brackets for the Silverado coils at the very least, plus a mount for the MAP sensor.

I see the LS firing order is not the same as earlier GM (SBC and SBB). I'll be looking for a setting for that, there very well may be one. Otherwise I may have to change the wire assignments accordingly for injectors and coils.

Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

I've learned that the Caddy CTS V-Sport (1 step below the CTS-V, has a 3.4L turbo V6 @ 425hp) Used both the Aisin 8 speed and a standalone TCM. The TCM may be just a glorified solenoid driver however, I don't have that info yet, it's:

 ACDELCO 24266725

It MAY run on a CAN bus link to the pcm, or it could be a more complex connection. It may or may not be able to work with the earlier 2001 '411 controller. Two pcm's are listed:

ACDELCO 12692067 and,
ACDELCO 12676230

Both of which appear to be used in V8 applications.

However, tuning of these newer pcm's could prove to be a challenge, and they are more expensive to acquire.

Jim

[MG four six eight]

Jim,
The Asian 8 speed TCM contains VIN specific software data and has final say in transmission function/operation based on inputs from other modules via the high speed data line. It does contain processors and logic, so it is more then just a solenoid driver. It may be possible for it to function as a stand alone controller if communication is lost on the high speed network with other modules. However most likely it would limit transmission functions to a "limp or fail safe mode", as it relies on input from the ECM for RPM to control the shift points.
 
Unfortunately it probably won't communicate with the older 411 controllers. The TCM uses a high speed data rate of 500kbit while the older ECM uses 10.4Kbit class 2 communications.

Bill

[BlownMGB-V8]

Thanks Bill.

So the next question would be to find out how far things have moved along with the 2013-15 GM controllers, and if those above are interchangeable with Silverado, Camaro, and Corvette pcm's.

For now I'm moving ahead with the '411 controller for the 340 Buick to get the car back on the road. At the same time I'm in the middle of a blower 300/350 project and it seems feasible to mate the Aisin to that and put it on a run stand, which would let me check some of the TCM functions. Just don't expect to see much on that until after the car's running again. Right now I'm dealing with the pcm, wheels, tires and brakes. Lots to do before June.

Jim

[MG four six eight]

Your welcome Jim,

Most of the advancements have been in processor speed both the input/out put as well as CAN communications. Sensor inputs are pretty much the same for the most part. Some applications are now using wide band O2 sensors as well.

Additionally a few engines are using individual fuel injector trim rates based off of monitored crankshaft speed, similar to how they do it on newer Duramax diesels.

Not sure if the new controllers will drive traditional port fuel injectors though, as most of the new ECM's are designed to run direct injected fuel injectors.
On 2014 and newer direct injected V8 engines, the controller uses "2 squirts" on cold start up and the direct injectors have a calculated flow rate per bank. The ECM then compares the flow rates between the cylinder banks. It is for this reason if we have a bad injector, the other 3 injectors on the same bank are usually replaced at the same time. Because the injectors are now the same age, the flow rates are now equal for the entire bank and the ECM doesn't set a DTC.

Fuel pump control modules are now being used and FPCM controls the supply side fuel pressure via pulse width modulation to the fuel pump. The FPCM commands fuel pressure based off the request from the ECM via high speed CAN line.
 
Now that I think about it, quite a lot has changed since 2001. My 17 Silverado has 80 more horsepower and gets better fuel mileage then my 99 did with the same 5.3L displacement!
Bill

[BlownMGB-V8]

Limp mode is definitely a concern, I already know what that is like. 3rd gear only. It moves right out but won't be going very fast.

It's entirely possible the TCM takes inputs from the paddle shifters and the console shift, and it has 3 speed sensors in the transmission so technically an engine rpm signal should not be required. However, they set them up to do some very fancy things. Who knows how much of that you can lose before limp mode sets in? Or how much of it goes over the CAN bus? The switch to high speed CAN is likely to be a bit of a problem as well.

In the Toyota applications gear selection is made by the PCM. I hope GM didn't follow their lead, but I'll have to get a wiring diagram from a v-sport to find out. Apparently the same TCM was used in a lot of the CTS models as well. (Did they also have the Aisin? IDK)

It might be possible to buy a wrecked Caddy as a donor. TCM, PCM, valve body, and wiring. But then it'll still be necessary to get inside the PCM to run V8 mode and set injector parameters, delete MAF, etc. DI is a further complication of course. Wonder if there were any non-DI engines in 2013? Sure seems like there were.

Jim

[MG four six eight]

Jim,

The V8 cars/trucks in 2013 were still port injected, while the V6 is direct injected. Pretty sure the V8 and V6 (port vs direct injected) use different ECM's. Since the Asian trans was used behind the V6, not sure if the Asian TCM will communicate with the V8 ECM as it was designed to communicate with the 6L80 6 speed from that era.
The paddle shift switches for manual shifting mode are actually wired to the BCM. Then the BCM sends a shift command signal to the TCM via the serial data line.
Bill

[BlownMGB-V8]

Here's some progress. The first photo is the LS internal trigger wheel with it's weird double row of staggered teeth. I have the matching double pickup but forgot to put it in the photo. The trigger wheel has 5 big balance holes in it which must help with balancing the LS crankshaft but I don't need those so I turned some plugs.



In the second photo you can see that the plugs have been welded into place and the welds skimmed. Certainly helps to have the right tools. This will next have the ID cut to match my damper adapter which it will be either welded or bolted to later on. In the same photo you can also see the GM stepper type IAC motor and mounting block completed in anodized aluminum which will next be bolted to the underside of the air inlet scoop in place of the old Ford unit. I expect it will work much better. The old IAC was a PWM type and was very noisy.



The last two photos show the Silverado COP coils positioned about where they will have to go, mounted above the valvecovers. These are the so-called "smart" coils or logic level input type with built in driver amplifiers to handle the heavy coil current. Brackets will have to be made to mount these.





Jim

[BlownMGB-V8]

New wheels arrived today. I plan to clear anodize them before mounting tires. Although I am still considering color anodize, if I can find inexpensive dyes and tubs for them.

[MGBV8]

Drag car wheels!  

[BlownMGB-V8]

Finished up the coil mounts yesterday, got some photos. First just the mounts:



Then the mounts with the coils attached:



Finally the engine with the mounts and coils installed:



So that's done. More to do.

Jim