You won't believe this

rficalora · March 23, 2011, 07:19:43 PM

One last question, then it's decision time... is there any value to the existing axles/CV's that I might recoup on ebay or the like? E.g., if new axles are on the order of $775 to upwards of $1k, are there folks out there who'd see these as a bargain - either for parts or to make to the size they need by cutting/turning & using DOM like above? If there's a market for them, any idea what I'd likely be able to get back?

Bill Young · March 23, 2011, 10:23:44 PM

Rob, I can;'t see that they would have any value to anyone else as they are built for your particuilar applicatiion and IRS. I don't know what Todd has to say, but if it were my car I'd use the existing axles and some DOM and try it, really don't have much to lose for now and the cost would be small even if they didn't hold up. You'd have plenty of time to try them out before taking off for Townsend. I'd use some DOM that was just small enough OD to clear the shocks and other suspension bits with an ID just smaller than the OD of the smaller of the two stub axles you're working with. If you need a source for a small length of DOM at a reasonable price let me know, we have a good store here in KC that sells stock by the inch. That's where we got the stock for the Roadmaster rear axles. I can get it and ship it to you. Check out their website to get an idea of the sizes available and the cost. http://www.metalbythefoot.com/ Same goes for anyone else that can't find stock locally as long as the quantity is small enough to ship by UPS or parcel post.

rficalora · March 24, 2011, 12:04:29 AM

Yeah, I checked ebay & nothing but parts for OEM cars - nothing that looks like they're catering to the hot rod crowd.

Looks like I'm going to have to remove the passenger side & measure before I finalize dimensions because I'm confused. I put the car back on the ground & measured from the diff flange (where the axle bolts up) out to the bearing where the outer CV meets -- it's 17". I then put the axle back together & measured it from the same places & it's only 16" -- even with the inboard plunge part fully extended to the very end of the plung housing. I measured twice & got the same result. It's almost like there was a 1" piece welded in the middle that broke loose & got lost when the axle broke -- honestly, I can't imagine that could be the case but I haven't been able to think of another explanation. Before I can close on either machining or the drive shaft shop I need to sort out what the right measurement is.

mgb260 · March 24, 2011, 12:29:09 AM

Rob the weight of the car compresses or plunges the axle slightly. Maybe the axle was slightly too long and bottomed out is why it broke. You would think at normal road height it wouldn't be compressed very much. Tape it up and have somebody push down on the fender and see if it bottoms. A lot of times the axles are different lengths to center the pinion. If the control arms are the same length both sides, the axles are probably the same. Also on my R230 the output flanges are different length from the diff.

rficalora · March 24, 2011, 12:48:26 AM

Actually what I'm seeing is just the opposite Jim. The [broken] axle is measuring 16" from diff flange to hub bearing mating surface -- that's with the axle plunged "out" to where the CV balls would be at the very outboard edge of the collar -- any more out & the axle would fall out of the collar. That's why I was saying it's like a piece is missing.

mgb260 · March 24, 2011, 01:15:37 AM

I get it after rereading. Long day at work. The wheel is just moved out with the axle out. Jack up that side and I bet you can push the wheel in and bolt up the taped axle. Put the car back down on the ground. Then try pushing the fender down and see if it bottoms. Then you can measure both axles and see if they are the same.

flitner · March 24, 2011, 03:46:03 AM

Quote,,,,,,,, The wheel is just moved out with the axle out. Jack up that side and I bet you can push the wheel in and bolt up the taped axle. Put the car back down on the ground. Then try pushing the fender down and see if it bottoms. Then you can measure both axles and see if they are the same.

Take a measurement with the car jacked up then with the suspension compressed and make sure the travel is correct with the travel in the cv joints.
If need be wind the spanners on the coilovers back to get a few extra compressed inches of travel for any unforseen circumcisions.

Bill Young · March 24, 2011, 10:06:48 AM

Rob, I was just reading through the Roadmaster build posts and found where I posted the size of the DOM tubing we used. It was 1.5" OD with a .250" wall thickness.
If your axle did indeed reach the end of the travel in the CV joints that would explain some extra stress placed on the welded area. Add the torque plus some linerar stress could easily result in a stress failure.
In the Jag rear the half shaft acts also as the upper control arm so it has to be able to handle both rotational and linerar forces. So far there are a lot of Cobra kit cars and hot rods running around with axles narrowed using DOM that seem to be doing quite well.
Todd, hope you know we're not trying to out engineer you, just offering ideas to both you and Rob on how to fix his problem and get him on the road towards Townsend without worry.

mgb260 · March 24, 2011, 12:39:46 PM

These links are very informational on axle length: http://www.rorty-design.com/content/axles.htm#Determining%20Custom%20Axle%20Lengths http://www.swayaway.net/joomla/images/InstallInstructions/AxleLengthMeasurementInstructions.pdf

rficalora · March 24, 2011, 01:38:38 PM

Good info -- I'd read portions of it before... what's the deal with unwinding? The pic @ that link sort of looks like the break in mine. Do I need to worry about being sure the axles are spinning the right way if they're being cut, turned & DOM sleeved? If so is there any way to determine if they're on the right or wrong side already?

DiDueColpi · March 24, 2011, 01:59:54 PM

Rob,

I have never heard of "un winding".
Possibly this is an old wives tale resulting from the twist that some forged axles seem to have.
This twist appearance is caused when the axle is run through a rolling forge to strengthen it.
If this was an issue you would think that the axles would have a direction printed on them.
I've been wrong before but all the witnesses have disappeared.

Cheers
Fred

mgb260 · March 24, 2011, 02:09:01 PM

Basically the axle has to be shortest when level(straight across) and longest at full droop without bottoming either way to determine length. I wonder if you were a little short and when you adjusted your coilovers for ride height extended the distance even more.

Bill Young · March 24, 2011, 02:12:43 PM

Rob, I don't know about the unwinding thing, but it shouldn't be difficlut to just do one axle at a time and keep track of what side they each came from and reinstall them on the same side. Most of the problems associated with changing axles from side to side relates to the splined area where the axle fits into the side gear in the differential. I suppose that could also be the same for splines on CV joints as well, so just keep them seperate side for side.

rficalora · March 25, 2011, 02:18:57 PM

ordered new axles from "The Drive Shaft Shop" in NC. By the time I added up cost of machining, DOM, welding, etc. I was at about 1/2 or more compared to DSS price for complete new axles

DiDueColpi · March 25, 2011, 02:39:48 PM

And probably some peace of mind.

rficalora · March 25, 2011, 04:40:36 PM

There is an element of peace of mind, but I really wanted to do the DOM route. What really put me over the edge was the combination of two things:

1. since I can't turn & weld them myself, I'm dependant on shops. Local shops were quoting about 3 to 3.5 hrs per axle for machining & welding time; that plus the DOM puts the price not all that much less than the DSS answer.

2. turn around time -- DSS is 1 week. The two shops I'm comfortable with here were talking approx 3 weeks which puts me very close to Townsend -- not much time left to shake out the car before the meet.

Rob

mgb260 · March 25, 2011, 08:43:01 PM

Rob, Sounds like you are almost there. This article on CV's talk a little about using used axles and "unwinding". Made me rethink about using one axle and cutting it in half. I will get 2 Vanagon axles and mark them L and R the way they came off. If you think about it, it makes sense.The axles always twist the same way,so when you reverse them they want to twist the opposite. Your break does look like that,plus your 1" short axle might have even stressed it more. The modifications for travel angle are for buggys. Most car u joints only have 7-8 max angle where the VW Type 2 has 17. He likes the BMW CV's. Same as type 2 but allow 21 degree angle(not neccessary for street). GT40 and Cobra kit cars use the Porsche 930 like the ones you are getting,should be heavy duty. http://www.rorty-design.com/content/CV_joints.htm

Six0GTO · March 25, 2011, 09:21:36 PM

Rob,

Releived to hear you went with the DSS solution. Im sure your wallet isnt but in this case DSS will serve you well. I have had several sets of axles and drive shafts made up by them and trully am impressed with the quality. The other peice of this is down the road if you ever have a CV failure the parts are MUCH easier to get and install.

If there is anything else you need in this please let me know!

rficalora · April 14, 2011, 12:35:47 AM

Guess what came on the UPS truck today...
20111-04-13 New Axles (2).jpg

flitner · April 14, 2011, 01:06:20 AM

Hey Looky there, Someone must have been home to sign the DIAD I'll bet you're ecstatic!!!!!

74ls1tr6 · April 14, 2011, 05:21:13 PM

Nice!

Get those bad boy's installed now :-)

rficalora · May 19, 2011, 02:08:06 PM

Jim or anyone who's messed with the R200S differential -- should there be any end play on the diff stub axles? On mine the driver side is solid -- if i tug on the flange there's no movement. On the passenger side there's 3/32 to 1/8" of end play. I did a little google surfing & found some folks saying that's normal & some saying not normal??

mgb260 · May 19, 2011, 06:53:23 PM

Rob, Take a rubber hammer and tap on it a little. It's held in with a snap ring. If that is the side that broke, it might have pulled out a bit. I can't wiggle either on my R230.

rficalora · May 19, 2011, 09:09:38 PM

it isn't the side that the axle broke on. Driver side axle broke: this is on the passenger side. Is the snap ring something you can get at by taking the rear cover off or would I have to disassemble the whole thing?

mgb260 · May 20, 2011, 11:20:41 AM

Rob, You don't need to take the cover off or disassemble. The output stub shafts just pop in. It is a simple round wire snap ring in a groove. I've pried the output stub shafts out with two pry bars and used a slide hammer puller also. Just use a rubber hammer or hammer a block of wood to put it back in. I would just try tapping it in first. Keep us posted.