Buick 215 with T5 transmission

[celicoupe]

Hello all. I am here from 1stgencelica.com. I will be putting a 215 in a 76-77 Celica some day and was wondering if you need a particular bell housing to couple with a T5 transmission. I havent aquired a transmission yet but I am interested in a world class T5 with a tall gear ratio.

[tr8todd]

You need to find a bell housing from either a buick or oldsmobile 215 or early v6.  I think D&D Fabrication also makes one.  They will pop up from time to time.  Expect to pay at least $200 for one.  You will also most likely need to use and annular sleeve hydraulic throwout mechanism.  Tilton makes a nice one.  I don't know if the Celica used a cable or a hydraulic clutch release, so you will have to consider that as well.  And then you will have to have a driveshaft made.  And then....the list goes on.  Good luck.  I wish you well.   A 215 ought to make that little car scoot.

[MGBV8]

"I think D&D Fabrication also makes one"

Actually, they buy them from Transdapt.

[celicoupe]

Thanks for the input. The celicas used hydraulic clutches so I will try to utilize the existing clutch master cylinder. This is a nice forum you got here.
You cannot view this attachment.

[joe_padavano]

The GM bellhousing only works for certain T5s.  GM went to the Ford case on the T5 (but kept the GM input shaft) in the early 1990s.  You can use the Mustang T5s, but they come in three different input shaft lengths.  D&D does sell adapter plates to mount the Mustang trans to the GM bellhousing.

In case you haven't seen this before, here is one of the best threads about the different T5 configurations:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171291

[celicoupe]

Very good reading, thank you. I'd better study shifter position before I pick up a transmission.

[NixVegaGT]

If you have trouble finding a good GM T5 from a V8 car you can use a V6 version. I bought a WC T5 from a '93 V6 Camaro. The input shaft is too long for the Buick/Rover so you have to swap out the input shaft with a "V8" T5. You can buy them separately.

Shifter position is something to consider. The F-body T5 has the shifter pretty far back. I swapped out the tailhousing with a "Ford" WC T5. All that was needed to do was swap out the tailshaft bushing with the GM dia. Went right in, no problem. The other problem is the speedo gear is located in the wrong spot for the "Ford" tailhousing. I wrapped some sheet metal around the main shaft tail and pressed the speedo gear from the GM main shaft on to it to put it in the right location. The sensor gear housing went right into the "Ford" bore for it. Worked just fine so far. We'll see if it hangs around.

The up shot with the Ford housing is you can put the shifter in an alternate position. It could be that the F-body shifter will work for your car though. This was for a Chevy Vega. I moved my shifter even farther forward by mounting the F-body shifter shaft selector block that puts the shifter ball socket farther forward than the Ford shifter does. Then I mounted a Hurst S10 shifter on a custom shifter plate. Worked good.

Cool car. I would love to make a project out of one of these before they get too cool to buy. I had one in HS back in the 80's. Really cool car. '77 GT. HOT. I love that euro rear bumper you can get for the GT. Really makes the design IMO. Do you have a journal for your project?

[joe_padavano]

"The celicas used hydraulic clutches so I will try to utilize the existing clutch master cylinder. "

An even better option is a hydraulic throwout bearing.  Gets rid of the clutch fork and provides a little more exhaust clearance.

[v8ian]

A company here in the UK sells them,  http://www.realsteel.co.uk/

They sometimes turn up o EBay UK as TVRs used them in their production cars, Personally, I have broken a couple  of WCs thru hard launches, which made me look further for a better box, I ended up with a Toyota Supra 5 speed w58? Bellhousings are available from here,    http://www.dellowauto.com.au/catalogue/DellowAutomotive.pdf or Castlemaine rodshop http://www.rodshop.com.au/

Ian

[roverman]

Bill, "Ram Clutches" makes a hyd. TOB.= $200. in Jeg's. I believe GM. also has. True story, Supra is stronger.Later Celica, irs.? Sometimes a T-axle, is a better way to go. roverman.

[celicoupe]

I guess I'm not familiar with a hydraulic throw out bearing. How does it work? One of our celicas has a W58 transmission (with a Toyota 20R engine) but I wasn't aware of an adaptor to couple a W58 with a 215. Would it be strong enough for 300 HP? Some guys do put IRS in their cars but I think I am going to go with a solid axle for simplicity sake.

@NixVegaGT You would be refering to what we call the "smiley" bumper. There are some guys that make fiberglass smileys for our cars and they are alot better looking than the "safety" bumpers that were introduced in 75. I don't have a build thread on here since my car is not british. You can find me at 1stgencelica.com. My thread names are "celicoupe's trio" and "Celicoupe's 77 CST" found in the "celica project gallery" section. When I actually start the V8 Celica project I will start a thread here.

[v8ian]

Will a 55//57/58/59 live behind the rover--- yes without a doubt,  have run one for the last 6 years without a problem, and given it plenty of hard launches, with hundreds of drag racing launches, 1.5sec 60 fts and low 12 times, I have no doubt about its ability to survive behind the V8, I even use a celica back axle from a 83? hatch F series axle/diff with factory LSD, fitted with Moser shafts as i had to narrow the axle, but as factory, the shafts are bigger than a Ford 8", even if the bearings are the same as a 8"

[joe_padavano]

"I guess I'm not familiar with a hydraulic throw out bearing."

The throwout bearing actually has a torroidal hydraulic cylinder behind the bearing that fits over the input shaft.  The hydraulic lines run into the bellhousing.  The hydraulic bearing expands axially and presses against the front face of the trans case (actually the input bearing retainer) and against the clutch fingers.  Much cleaner than an external slave cylinder.  Howe makes bearings that are even less expensive than Ram.  Check www.summitracing.com.

[joe_padavano]

"Actually, they buy them from Transdapt."

Really?  The Trans Dapt website makes no mention of these bellhousings.

[roverman]

Bill, I'm not sure if you mentioned inches or tork/hp. on your build, but you "may" want to consider that Celica 5 spd.? I would bet it's very close to a T5 in strength. I think you have a 5 speed ? Toyotas tend to be comparatively strong in the drive train dept. I'll be using the MR 2 turbo t-axles, but "that's" another story.   roverman.

[Moderator]

I used a Tilton hydraulic throw-out bearing for years... but it was a dreadful thing. I'd be reluctant to try another HTOB from any vendor if there's any way feasible to make an external slave cylinder work. With the slave cylinder inside the bellhousing and concentric to the transmission's input shaft, adjusting or bleeding the bearing is inconvenient. (The Tilton needed careful adjustment and careful bleeding too.) When it starts leaking, as mine did, you typically have to pull the transmission to do anything about it. Depending on your car, you might have to pull the engine. Besides all that... they're expensive!

If you install a HTOB, be careful to install a positive stop on the clutch pedal because the number one most common failure of these things is seal damage due to hyper-extension.

You can find lots of photos of slave cylinder alternatives in the photo galleries. Try the google search box at the top of the page. You might want to search specifically for "pull type" slave cylinders which can be mounted along the gearbox case behind the shift fork.

Incidentally, we've also run an article or two specifically about the Toyota transmission options.

Unless you're drag-racing, I don't necessarily see durability as a key issue when choosing between gearboxes for such lightweight cars. Any of these boxes should be durable if they're driven by a reasonably skilled driver. However, my experience is that the T5 provides relatively slow shifts. I've been using mine since 1992, and it still doesn't seem broken-in yet. (Partly that's due to friction in the stock Camaro linkage.) Anyhow, the slickness of shifts may be the real advantage of the Toyota box.

With regard to bellhousings... The latest D&D bellhousings have their initials ("D" and "D") cast right into them. They may still be made by Transdapt...

[mgb260]

I agree with Curtis, Here is a pic of external slave and adapter from Chevy(GM) to Toyota (actually AX15, also works for R154,  or Colorado,Canyon,Solstice,Skye which have Chevy splines and output yoke) from Novak. Advance Adapters bellhousing adapter GM to W and G Toyota.
You cannot view this attachment.
You cannot view this attachment.
You cannot view this attachment.

[celicoupe]

Well based on all the excellent help from all of you I have decided to go with a W58 from a supra. I know the shifter position is in the right place and I already know how to modify the cross member because we did it on my dads celica. But the best part is, there is a W58 for sale locally right now. It is from an 84 supra and he wants 100 for it. As far as the slave cylinder / HTOB decision... Haven't decided yet. Thank you all so much!

[Hack]

Hey Bill,

I have a 77 RA28 with a Rover 3.5 litre, Dellow bellhousing and 5 Speed Celica box.
I haven't had great deal of problems with the standard box, with the one that was in the car lasting many years (and more then a few hard launches) before chipping a few teeth of second gear.

I don't think you will have any problems with the Supra box handling the power :-)

Hack