thoughts on Total Seal rings

[tr8todd]

Has anybody here ever used them on a Rover V8?  Seeing how these motors generate a fair amount of blowby with standard rings, I am considering using the Total seal rings on my 4.0 project.  The engine is at the machine shop now.  The machinist is going to look into getting the rings for both stock pistons and forged JE pistons if I go that route.  His concern was that the ring groove in the stock piston is only 1mm wide, and it might be difficult to source them that thin.  A quick look at the Total Seal website, shows them available for a 3.70 bore in 1, 1.2, and 2.0 mm.  My only experience with them before is in my BMW 4 cylinder race motor that leak down tested at 2%.

[roverman]

Best people to talk to-be ,Total Seal "Tech Line".  You must "gap" the gapless ring in a, hiper/hipo-eutectic cast alloy piston,(late Rover). These pistons,"hold", do not transfer the heat, as due forged. As a result, can butt the end gaps , because of localized  heat. I feel the stock, late Rover piston ,does not have adequate oil-return provision for that "skinny" oil ring to cope with. I suggest reading the "piston" post, as there are "many",  lower cost alternatives to custom forged pistons.Have a good build, roverman.

[hoffbug]

Ran the speed pros on the 406 before.. now have the gapless total seals on top.. I like em so far..

[tr6turbo]

I have used gap less rings on my turbo Ford 2.3L at 25 pounds of boost.  they worked well except that the engine used more oil for some reason.  After loosing the rod last summer I put it back together with standard Total Seal rings.  I now have blow by.  I have heard others say that gap less rings use oil.

[roverman]

Dale, drag race only ? Low tension rings for, "other" than drag racing will tend to pass oil. They address this in their, "ring selection " chart. Of course, an  evacuator valve,( smog type anti- backfire valve), properly mounted on the exh. collector will assist in producing negative crankase pressure. Marketed by Moroso ?  roverman.

[tr6turbo]

Art,   The car gets about 5,000 miles on it each year with at least 12 days of drag racing.  It is hard to find room  for the evac. tube back to the exhaust.

[MGBV8]

I thought those were only used with open headers.

[roverman]

Yes Carl, Hence my first question...drag racing only ? At 25 lbs boost, I'm thinkin ,not too much street use ? I don't know if such a valve, even open hedder, would work, that well on a tubo-final exh.? Low tension rings ?

[hoffbug]

With the advent of mufflers requirements at the dragstrip belt drive vacuum pumps were developed... Now they produce far better and more dependable vacuum that an evac system ever did.. and they arent "just" for racecars anyone.. anyone wanting the performance advantage of low tension rings can use them
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/street-pump-kits.html

[roverman]

Clan, dumb question ? Could an EGR pump provide suitable vacum ? Seems that, since it blows, it also produces vacum ? roverman.

[hoffbug]

Yes... But Not without a considerable amount of modification.. the GZ pumps start out as an AIR pump.. but have rulon wipers and some porting done to them.

[MGBV8]

When I first read of this way back they were using OEM smog pumps to evacuate the crankcase.  That's it, where's my old MGB smog pump?!

[Hotrodrobert]

I have used the gapless top and second rings and do not like them.  If you have good pistons, rings and PROPERLY PREPARED cylinder bores, they make very little positive difference ever and can be a real problem.
Randy Dorton of Hendrick Motorsports would throw anyone who mentioned gapless rings out of the shop.
The gapless second rings can cause pressure to build between the compression and second oil ring causing ring flutter on the top ring loosing seal and causing blowby.  The second ring is the second OIL ring, not any type of compression seal.
I have seen several back to back tests of gapless rings on the dyno with a flow meter attached to the crankcase breather and good conventional rings are BETTER!!
In the current market, if gapless rings were  ANY better for any reason, all the OEMs would have them now.

[roverman]

And yet, every test I've read in "Engine Masters Mag",The Total Seal rings out-performed pre-gapped and file-to-fit in cranking compression, hp and torque. I don't believe it's because they have stock in Total Seal. roverman.

[tr8todd]

Talked to the machinist who has my motor yesterday.  He still hasn't torn down the motor, but he did have a talk with the tech guys at total seal.  Apparently there is a problem using the total seal rings on stock 4.0 pistons.  Something about the oil scraper being too close.  We didn't have much time to talk, but it looks like I might opt for forged pistons and more boost.  I still really want to know what the threshold is on a basically stock motor, so I might just have him throw in new rings and bearings and see what it takes to blow it up.  Maybe I'll just boost the 3.5 thats in the car now.  Blow that up.  Then put in the forged 4.0 assembly.  Now that sounds like a plan.  I guess I need to wait and see what he finds inside my $150 junk yard 4.0.

[roverman]

Todd, the 4.0/4.6 oem. piston, "might" be hypoeutectic ? I had a customer, by mistake, running 22lbs manifold. They were "techline" coated on top,(slowed-down the melting process). They didn't blow, just torched. They were also "center drilled", at bottom of scrapper, for enhanced oil return.  Good Luck, roverman.

[BlownMGB-V8]

Todd, I ran 16+ psi blown (Eaton) and intercooled (heat pipe) on an Olds 215 with 8-1/2 CR and cast pistons using a MegaSquirt controller and EDIS ign. Output was around 300 hp (possibly slightly more) and it gradually melted the top corner off one piston, exposing the ring. You're welcome to take that as a benchmark. With forged pistons I have no doubt it'd have been just fine.

JB